Being curious keeps me energised!

Being curious keeps me energised!

Jingle Laura María Calderón Cuevas
Interviewer Véronique Lerch
Editing Brua | bruapodcasts.com

Transcript

Inge Jacobs 00:02

Two roads diverged in a wood and I, I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the  difference.

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Véronique Lerch 00:17

Welcome to a new episode of the podcast The road less traveled. This is a project of the Center of  Human Rights from the University of Padova and Global Campus of human rights. The project aims at  exploring the less usual careers and career paths that are possible after a degree in human rights. We  started this project because we believe that there are many ways to do human rights. And our guest  today will tell us how she is doing human rights while working for the private sector. Inge has an  academic background in law with master's degrees, both in human rights and public health. She has 15  years of experience in NGOs, as well as eight years in the private sector working for Mars. Welcome,  Inge.

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Inge Jacobs 01:00

Thank you. Thanks Vero good be with you.

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Véronique Lerch 01:05

Great to have you with us. And I'm really excited to be talking about the private sector. But before we  start about this, I was actually wondering, you've been working for now over 20 years in human rights in  different ways, for the private sector and nonprofits. So I was wondering what still motivates you.

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Inge Jacobs 01:23

I would say, sometimes it's very double, because I feel very overwhelmed by everything that needs to  be done. And I'm like, oh, there are so many issues to solve, and so many things to do. And progress  can feel very slow sometimes. But then what motivates me is when I'm really working with the people  where where I feel my work matters most, which is usually when and right now this is working in  

different supply chains with the farmers who produce our raw materials. So when I'm on the farms with  the people seeing what our programs do, and what our interventions do in terms of improving their  livelihoods, or improving their agricultural practices. That's what really motivates me and gives me  satisfaction. And even if it's just a few people that we're supporting, on that journey to better livelihoods  that really is what gives me the most energy in my job.

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Véronique Lerch 02:12

I can imagine. When do you think that your interest in human rights started? I mean, sometimes, I  mean, we talk about like, with different guests, you know, that sometimes their interest that before they  have the word for human rights. So maybe you can even trace it back further. But it's of course, not a  psychotherapy session. So yeah wherever you think it started.

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Inge Jacobs 02:39

So I think it's a good point, I did start before I even know, I wanted to do human rights. I think it's  because I am originally from Belgium. But I grew up in Africa for the first 20 years of my life, with my  dad being a medical doctor over there, and my mom being a nurse. And so I guess, seeing his work  day to day, being exposed to very different cultures, also different levels of poverty, and of inequalities  in the world, you know, we traveled quite a bit. So I feel like that's where the seed was planted.  Because even after that, I went to university in Belgium, I studied law, but I know I didn't want to study  law to be a lawyer in a courtroom somewhere in Belgium, I really knew I wanted to go in a more  international development kind of path. And that's where, you know, was like, okay, so then human  rights was like the right fit for me. And that's also why later on, I added a master's in public health,  because again, it kind of connected many dots, and it was all about people and being able to do, yeah,  to bring some positive impact on the lives of people that I would be working with. So that I guess it  started quite young in a way, even without me knowing it.

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Véronique Lerch 03:49

And which difference does it make for you to have a master in human rights? Because I guess, you  know, also, what we we often say is that we don't need to have a master one way to do human rights,  but which difference you make for you?

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Inge Jacobs 04:06

Well, I think, yeah, I think it gave me a little bit more of a framework because I knew I wanted to do  something in development and in human rights. And it gave me a good framework to think about  human rights, you know, you have the theoretical background, obviously. And the theoretical  knowledge gave me a good understanding of everything that is out there and of the complexities as  well of the topic. So I think it's more around the theoretical framework of human rights. I think that's  what helped me starting with the degree in human rights, and then afterwards, obviously, when you get  into your career, that's when you get to the application of what you have learned and all the theoretical  knowledge. And that's really also where you realize, okay, there's the theoretical framework, but in  practice, it's actually much more complex to solve many of the issues that we want to solve. But I liked  that it gave me this this framework. background knowledge. The fact of and this master's that we did  was really about the you know, the exchanges with all the different people from different backgrounds  and different nationalities. I think that was also a big part of the, of the learning and of the richness of  doing a master's program in human rights.

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Véronique Lerch 05:18

For sure. And and do you feel your understanding of human rights has shifted since you graduated?  Because we graduated a long time ago. And you had a lot of time to apply your knowledge. And I think,  as you said, the application does bring a lot of challenges and, and questioning as well as critical  thinking towards what we learn. So I wonder where it shifted for you.

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Inge Jacobs 05:47

Yeah, the way in which it shifted is that I think, Okay, it's good to have that theoretical framework or  background, and one thing that I thought of was like, Oh, I did my masters right after I graduated from  law school, and I feel like sometimes I would want to do the Masters again, now with all the experience  that I have, from my practical, you know, from from my work from my professional life, because I would  look at it in a very different way. And I would be able to debate and engage much more with all the  knowledge that I have now, because I've seen, the way my thinking has shifted is really, you know, you  learn about all these, the conventions and the theory. But in practice, the problems are actually much  more complex than what can be solved by looking at it at a convention or so, you know, we worked in  cocoa quite a bit in which we worked on the topic of child labor and human rights risks. And obviously,  you have all the ILO, the International Labor Organization, conventions that prohibited and that have all  the rules of the game. But in practice, it's so much more difficult because you talk to the farmers, like  cocoa farmers and, and they're feeling like, well, you all come and tell us that our kids cannot work, but  we want them to learn about the cocoa farming, because they're going to take off over our farm. So it's  really that cultural visit, to say context setting and understanding that is really critical once you start  practicing human rights, so to speak. And so the fact that it's much more complex, but also another  thing that I've seen has shifted in my understanding is really how issues are interconnected. You know,  you cannot talk about human rights without talking about the use of people without talking about planet,  it. There's so many issues that are interconnected, there's the whole issue around gender, that's also a  big, interconnected topic. And so I really feel with the professional experience that I've had now, both in  NGOs and private sector, I want to look at it from an even more broader perspective and not see just  human rights as a as a, as a specific, narrow topic, so to speak.

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Véronique Lerch 07:53

Yeah, very true. I do feel the same that you need. Yeah, you need a lot of different lenses to look at  those complex issues yet. And it's true that in having our practical experience, you really use thinking  much more about what it what it means in practice, and you can translate the knowledge or you can  explain it to anybody. I think that it's it will be interesting. Maybe what we need to propose is for them to  do a one year you know, and then 10 years later, you have to do another year.

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Inge Jacobs 08:21

Oh, why not? That'd be interesting. Yeah, we would have very different discussions, I'm sure.  

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Véronique Lerch 08:25

Oh my God, completely, completely. Yeah. Um, so yeah. So I mean, I said in the introduction, you  know, after eight years of working for the nonprofit, you started working for the private sector. And I  think it was right away Mars. No, yeah. And I was wondering if it was a conscious choice, or if it was  just by chance that you ended up working for some private sector. Did you really look for that new  experience?

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Inge Jacobs 08:55

It was a bit of both probably. There's always an element of right time, right place kind of thing. And we  were moving to as a family to Ivory Coast, to Cote d'Ivoire. And that's where I started working for Mars, because I knew I could do what is a big producer of cocoa. And so I had heard and read quite a bit  about child labor risks in cocoa and the migration issues in those countries. So I reached out to  someone working at Mars and they said, well, don't you have an opportunity. So that's a little bit how I  rolled into it. But then as it became more concrete, and the possibility of starting actually a job at Mars  became more concrete. I also had questions to myself. And I was like, because first when we moved to  Ivory Coast, I was actually looking for a job in the NGO sector. I wasn't really planning on going into the  private sector. But then when the opportunity became more and more concrete, I also had some  questions to myself because I was like, do I really want to work for a big company, you know, you hear  all these bad things about big multinationals. But then I reached out to quite a few people who worked  at Mars and one of the big advantages of Mars is that it's a family owned business. So it's a very big  company, but it's family owned. And so there's, there's a lot of, there's a great culture at Mars from what  I understood, then, you know, people were telling me it's there's a lot of freedom to experiment to pilot,  there's, there's a lot of willingness to also talk about sustainability topics and to really look into what can  we do to create more positive societal impact. So I kind of was attracted by that idea, plus, the fact that  I was thinking, you know, when you're in an NGO sector, or in an NGO, you can do projects and you do  great work, but the funding ends, you have to leave everything, if you're lucky, the work that you've  done will keep on going. But if you're not lucky, very often things will crumble apart, and then you know,  nothing, nothing happens further, which is a shame, I think. And so I thought in the private sector,  because we sourced in sustainability is linked to the commercial operation. So you buy ingredients, and  you will always need these ingredients as a company. So you can think much longer term because you  can work in your supply chain and make that supply chain more, more sustainable in terms of people  and planet, depending on the on the impact that that raw material has on, you know, whether it's a  water impact or climate impact or an impact on people. So I liked the idea of going into the private  sector and bringing my passion and knowledge about social and human rights, and driving change from  within. So that's what really attracted me. And I think my experience in NGOs has really helped me as  well, because what private sector is looking for more and more now, because, you know, some  companies have purpose, then at their, at their center, and they really want to do change, others are  kind of being pushed in that direction as well. But the fact is that companies more and more will look for  that expertise from people that have worked in the sector more at an NGO level. So it's, it's nice to have  both experiences, basically, because you can really bring quite a bit to the private sector in some  companies, they have big teams on sustainability, people with great expertise and great knowledge, but  in some other companies, they don't. And so they're really craving for that knowledge and that  expertise.

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Véronique Lerch 12:19

Yeah. As you were, as you started speaking, I was indeed thinking about the funding it is important to  be able to, to do projects and innovate. Yeah. And it's sometimes something which is really difficult in  the nonprofits.

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Inge Jacobs 12:37

And don't get me wrong. I'm not saying because in companies, it's not always easy either to get the  funding that you need, right.  

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Véronique Lerch 12:44

No I can imagine, especially if it's talking about human rights and sustainability, I can imagine that  there's a fight for funding and and what do we do? No, but you know, I mean, I think, yeah, there is a bit  of human rights washing, greenwashing. So yeah, we're not definitely not naive about it. But I think the  positive side of it is the scale of the operation, and the impact that you can have. And I think when we  talk this time, I was telling you that I saw this statistic that in 2019, Mars announced, they couldn't  guarantee that the chocolate products were free from child laborers, as it could trace only 24% of the  purchasing. But I think they made the commitment in 2001 that in four years, they would be able to do  it. And I think it shows booth, you know, where maybe it can create anxiety for you to decide to work for  them. But also, you know, that it is it was maybe very ambitious in 2001, to have that goal and  considering the scale and the complexity of the task, you know, it is, I mean, for me, it really shows both  the complexity of doing human rights in the private sector, but also, you know, the impact that you can  have. I do not know whether you have any comments as I think this is something you were directly  responsible for, I mean, directly involved in.

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Inge Jacobs 14:11

Yeah, so yeah, and I wasn't there in 2001 but my colleagues were and I know some colleagues who  were working on that and I think back in the time and as a sector cocoa and I'll talk a little bit about  cocoa because that's what I've been working in the last eight years now I'm with Mars food, which is  different supply chains different different role, but same sustainability related.

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Véronique Lerch 14:32

Maybe we can explain both jobs so that people get an idea of what it means to work for the press as  well.  

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Inge Jacobs 14:37

yeah. So in before joining Mars food, I was with Mars Wrigley, which is where I was in the COCOA  SUSTAINABILITY team. And so in that role, I was focusing on everything related to gender, farmer,  income, farmer, Farmer poverty and human rights risk in the cocoa supply chains. And as a sector, the  cocoa sector has evolved tremendously from back in 2000. Until today. And so there's enormous  amounts of multi stakeholder platforms where industry and NGOs and public governments, Ghana and  Côte d'Ivoire, for example, but also other governments join in to really say, okay, what are we going to  do to reduce the risk of child labor and back in the time, and then people have acknowledged that there  was just too little knowledge about the complexity of the issue, to make realistic targets or to set  realistic targets. And so these targets, and had to be reviewed in a way that, you know, what does it  actually mean to reduce the risk of child labor? And now we have much more understanding of, you  know, what I was saying earlier, where farmers will tell us, well, actually, our kids need to work, you  know. And the problem is very often that children are doing hazardous tasks, which is something that  we want to raise awareness about and talk about make sure kids are in school are not doing the  hazardous task because no one wants to hurt their own children. It's just part of the environment. And  the environment is so complex that so many basic needs are unmet, you know, there's no access to  health care, no access to schools, there's no, no proper roads. So parents take their children to the  farm, because either there's no school available, or the school is the farm. And so how do we address  all these basic needs? And the root causes of why there are risks for child labor? Why? How do we  address those root causes? And I think that's the conversation that the sector is now fully engaged on. Understanding that, you know, you can monitor for child labor, but just monitoring will not do away with  the problem, how do you actually address some of those root causes, and that's where you need  governments to step in and to step in, because we, as an industry, we don't have all the answers, we  want to buy the cocoa, we want to provide an income for the farmers. But, you know, we need all to put  some skin in the game, the all the money that the country raises through the cocoa taxes, for example,  that money needs to flow back to the communities where the cocoa is being grown, it shouldn't stay in  the capital, it should actually help in setting up those social infrastructure, for example. So it's much  more complex than what we thought it was the way it was, we thought, or, as a sector, people thought,  well, we can just solve this, it's we're going to do away with in a few years time? Well, no, it's not that easy. So and I feel we've come a long way, also in collaborating with the NGOs. And there's always  NGOs out there that are a bit more provocative. And I think that's great, because they push the private  sector as well to pick up you know, each one has the responsibility to take up. So I think I welcome that.  Because I think it's great that everyone is pushing back a little bit. And you know, we're, we're pushing  ourselves a bit further. But there's also a lot of NGOs that are part of this multi stakeholder platform,  because they have the experience on the ground. So how can we work together with those experts to  actually drive change in the community. So I feel Cocoa was a very interesting factor in that regard that  it has moved for, it's slow, as I said earlier, progress is really slow. But it's really about eradicating  poverty in those communities where we source and that's not something you just solve with three bullet  points or overnight, right. So that was experiencing Coco. Now, just a little word on my speech on my  work now, for Mars Food, I lead the sustainability work and you know, Mars food is much bigger than in  cocoa was working on one raw material. Now in March food, I'm working on many different ingredients.  And we obviously prioritize, because if you have 1000 ingredients, you cannot do something  everywhere. So we're looking at the raw materials that have the biggest impact on water, climate, or  people. And that's where we then intervene and work with our suppliers to make sure that we either you  know, certain, for example, if we're talking about rice, you know, we can work on sustainable rice  certification or so there's different ways to work on making sure that the raw materials that we buy, fulfill  certain requirements and standards.

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Véronique Lerch 19:05

Did it take you a lot to adapt to working for the private sector? Does it feel very different? To do human  rights in the private sector?

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Inge Jacobs 19:15

It felt very different. Yes. Because, you know, as a company, when you work for a company, the  company wants to be profitable, and it needs to make money and so sustainability. And that's  previously I don't, this is not the case at Mars, because I feel like more sustainability is really embedded  into the way we do business. At least that's what we're aiming for. And, and there's a nice thing at the  previous director or president of Mars was always linking purpose and profit, right? You can't have one  without the other because if you have profit, if you are profitable, you can actually reinvest in your  purpose and in sustainability. And so I think that drives a lot of the activities and the interventions that  we do and strategies that we we aim to change our supply chains. So it was very different for me in the  sense that it's there's a much more commercial outlook, which may, I'm more of a social person. And so  I didn't have that business acumen. So it's been something that I've had to learn. But I think it's  fascinating because I feel like that's really where I want to embed sustainability. And if you keep seeing sustainability as a silo, as an add on, we will never change the business, so or the way we do business.  So for me, having it as part of the commercial function is really where we should be driving the change.

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Véronique Lerch 20:37

And did you experience any pushback when you said you were going to work for the private sector?  From anybody in the NGO sector?

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Inge Jacobs 20:47

Not really, not really, when I when I moved, I didn't. No, because, you know, we're still working on the  topics that I'm passionate about the same topic. So it's continuing to do the same, the same thing. I was  lucky to join a company that is actually quite well known for wanting to, you know, to drive change, so  that's also positive, and you still hear it? You know, people want to join our teams, because there's a lot  of passionate. Like, I'm not the only one, there's so many passionate colleagues that I have in the, in  the topic of sustainability. And that's very energizing. I think so. No, I didn't really get any comments or, or criticisms.

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Véronique Lerch 21:26

I guess it all depends on which company you're joining.  

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Inge Jacobs 21:29

Yeah, as well. I'm sure. Yeah.  

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Véronique Lerch 21:31

And if you worked already together, and as you said, there were a lot of those multistakeholder  platform. So I guess, you know, if you have this experience of working together, and I guess there are  no pushbacks. Yeah, but But what would you say? You know, what would be your advice to graduate  human rights graduate you want to work for the private sector?

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Inge Jacobs 21:52

My, I would experiment different things that for me, Be curious. I think being curious is one of the other  things that helps me stay energized, and learn new things that I would definitely encourage everyone to  do some NGO work, if you can join the private sector, if you can get out there into a different country  and experience work on the ground, so to speak, you know, really try and have as much different as  many different experiences as possible, because that will really help you broaden your view of human  rights as a topic and of sustainability as a little broader topic. So experienced, different things. Don't be  shy, and you know, starting somewhere and after two, three years, say, Oh, actually, I need to do  something else. Now don't stick to one same thing for a very long time. That has helped the fact that I  moved countries actually helped me have to have different experience in I was kind of pushed into  changing roles and NGOs and experiences. So I think that's one of the advices I would have the other  one is connect with people and build your network. Because I feel like building the network is critical not  only for accessing different roles, but also for learning new things and learning about innovations or,  you know, it all fits into this curious mindset. If you build your network and you connect with people, I  think it will really help you broaden your scope and your view on what's possible and what could be  done. So these, for me are two of the of the main advice, pieces of advice I would give. And then maybe the last one is just be flexible and adaptable in your mind, you know, because if you come into,  for example, private sector, and you will still have that very rigid look of Oh, no private sector, they're  the bad actors. You know, I worked for NGOs all the time, and now I'm working, you won't experience  the change as a positive one. So be open minded and learn because what I've seen, and I'm quite an  optimist, but what I've seen is that people be it in NGOs, or in private sector, people don't want to do  harm to the planet or to people, you know, people are in it for for to do some some positive change.  And sometimes people are being pushed because they have commercial targets or you know, financial  targets that they have to meet. But they're always open to listen. And so having the experience that you  have as a human rights expert or specialist, you can teach people as well, a lot of new things, you can  teach people to look at things differently and to think about things that they might have not thought  about because they were in a very financial role or a very financially, they have a very financial  background, for example. So that's part of that connection and networking with people and go out of  your comfort zone. Don't stay with the people that are in the same field as you to connect with connect  with people who are in totally different fields so that you also understand their points of view. These are  some of the advices that I would want to give.

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Véronique Lerch 24:57

I mean, I agree with you and that's It'll links on nicely to a lot of the advice given by by other guests.  And I think one of the things you said reminded me of the episode we just, which has just been out  yesterday, which is about dance. And and you know the way, a lot about dance is about listening skills.  And I think what you're saying is this, you know, and what you were saying is actually really much,  pretty much what you said, which is about flexibility and listening to the other person and learning to  take risk together with a person. So yeah, I think it is, it is very similar to what a lot of people said so.  And is there anything that you wish you had been told when you graduated? Or that you wish you knew  that you wish you learned already when you did the Master?

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Inge Jacobs 25:44

Well, I wish I would have known then that there's so many different possibilities, where you know, what,  you learn that you could go in so many that I think, maybe it was sad, or it but I didn't realize it back  then probably. But looking back, I feel like wow, there's actually so many different things you can do.  And I've been recommending this master's, or the field of human rights to quite a few colleagues and  people who asked me about it, you know, we have younger colleagues who are just starting, and I'm  telling them to explore the Masters explore different, you know, NGO, work, explore different things so  that you can really build your, your expertise and your knowledge. I wish that's probably something I  would have known because then I could have, you know, I don't know if I would have done things  differently, because the way things shaped up for me or, you know, would repeat it. Because I've been  really happy to move around different countries, work with different NGOs, and then roll into the private  sector. It's been really a very, very energizing and inspiring journey. Yeah, I don't know if there's  anything else I wish I would have known. As I said, maybe the only thing is, you know, I think I would  have done the Masters again, now, it would have been a very different experience. And I probably  might have extracted more from it, then back in the time.

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Véronique Lerch 27:01

No, absolutely. Yeah. I think the we're doing this, this, yeah, this broadcast and this project because of  this, because we want people to understand, because it's still the case today, you know, I think we still  have a very limited understanding of what you can do, what you can do with a human rights degree.  And as you said, you know, there's so much there's so many ways to apply human rights. Is there  anything that helps you to keep you to be grounded music book, poem, activity, what do you do? What  do you do to remain the happy person you are?

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Inge Jacobs 27:42

Well, for one, I love to go outside. So I have a routine every single day, I need to go outside and see,  I'm fortunate to live in Chicago right now, where we're not far from Lake Michigan, which is like an  ocean, it's so big. So I love to go outside and have my daily long walk. And I make time for that in my  calendar. So I think, to stay grounded in the busy calendars that we have, I actually blocked time on my  agenda so that nobody else can put in meetings or calls or and the good thing is, in the morning times,  I'm busy with calls with Europe and Africa and all these regions in the world. But then in the afternoon,  it's a little bit quieter. And then I have time to just go for a walk. And then I do my second half of the  day. So going outside is really critical for me. And then the other thing is, is reading and it's part of the  being curious, I love to read and I have like a target for myself, you know that I want to read at least a  book a month, like 12 books per year. It's my own target. And it can be books from from fiction to  nonfiction. And there's many different books about the culture or history or whatever it is. But to me, it  helps me disconnect as well from the work or the everyday work. It helps me learn new things. It's  inspiring sometimes. And when it's just a fiction, you know, it's just fun to read. It's easy to read. I really  like I really liked that one book I recently read and I would like to give you as I talk to you about this. It's  the Art of Possibility by Rosamund and Benjamin Zander. It's an amazing book with very, and it's not a  management book. It's just a book with 12 Easy Steps in how can you see possibility in everyone and  in every situation. And I think it's a, it's written in a very positive fun way. And it's one that I like to  recommend to friends and colleagues as well because as you work in sustainability, as I said in the  very beginning, it can feel very overwhelming because it's like one problem after the other you're trying  to solve it's not greenhouse gas, it's water, you know, too much water use or water stress in areas  where you buy a raw material. You know, how do you do that and how can you change that? So  change is slow by nature and by definition, I guess so. It's important for me to read these kinds of  books that gives you some hope and optimism and yes, change is possible, even if it's one step at a  time. So that may sound a bit cheesy, but that's how I feel.

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Véronique Lerch 30:11

No. And I think as you said, I mean, we you said your advice is to remain curious. So I think having this  Yeah, I can, I don't know the book. But I can imagine that it is about expanding your mindset, it's about  the way you approach any issue. And remain flexible, which I think is a big issue indeed you think is to  keep thinking about problems in a different way? A different mindset with new people? So yeah, I think  that's to not always apply the same recipe to issues. So yeah, no, it sounds fantastic. We'll put we'll put  

the link on the page. Yep. Yeah, I mean, is there? Is there anything in particular that brings you joy in  your work?

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Inge Jacobs 30:56

Yeah, I love my work. And I think, what

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Véronique Lerch 30:59

you sound like you do so. What brings you joy in your work?

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Inge Jacobs 31:04

Um, I think there are many things. One is the amazing colleagues that I have, because I'm learning so  much from all the different people that are working for a bigger company, you're lucky that there's many  people around you. So there's a lot that you can learn from each other. And I just, again, in that spirit of  curiosity, you know, you can learn so much from other passionate and inspiring colleagues. That's what  really brings me joy. I think what I also why I also love my job is that I, it's the impact that we can make,  and the difference that we can make, you know, so every single day, I am trying to work on creating  better impact for people and for the planet. And even if it's only a little step, or a little part of the puzzle  that I can bring, it's still working on something that matters to me, and I think matters to the world. So  that that's my, my, my own purpose, right is really what difference can I can I make? So I really Yeah, I  think those are the things that make me happy. And obviously, there's also a lot of things that don't  make me happy when I have to wake up for 6am calls or things like that. But that's just part of the job.  And I think, working in the role that I am now. And I think that's also quite particular at Mars is that you  get a lot of freedom to drive change. And you know, you're seen as the expert, you're empowered as  the expert. And so it is the exchanges with leadership and with your teams and saying, Okay, this is the  direction we should be going. So people go all the way which, which is very inspiring. And you and  you're talking about better impact. I mean, do you do you have a specific vision for a hopeful future is,  uh, one thing in particular, you know, that you wish you could change? And you know, that you still  want to see in the next 10 years or 20 years. something in particular, though, the way you envision the  future? Yeah, so in the end, the reason why I'm doing all this is because I, I really want people in our  supply chains to have better lives, right. And I put it very simply, if we buy rice from a rice farmer or  cocoa farmer or tomato farmer doesn't matter who it is, from my current role food, I mean, food is so  important to the world. It's like a basic need, right? So and everyone is growing the food that we all eat.  So how can we make sure that the people who grow the food that we eat, are treated with fairness and  dignity and, and equally to everyone else, and are actually being compensated fairly for that? So how  can we change the way we do business or our commercial practices or buying practices in such a way  that we keep that in mind as well. And I've been telling my team this as well as, for me, sustainability  needs to just be one of the other criteria that we use to do business, you don't only look at price and  quality of the product and logistics, and you know, you have to take sustainability into account. So my  dream is really one where I'm actually not needed anymore. And my role is obsolete, where all the  buyers who buy our products, really whenever they go somewhere, they think about oh, actually, if we  buy a product from that country, we're going to contribute to increasing the water stress, we're going to  deplete the water reserves even more. So maybe we shouldn't go into that area, we should go into an  area where we can better manage the water use or if we buy a product where you know, there's quite a  lot of migrant labor being involved. Let's be attentive to that. And let's see whether we can do  something to avoid that people are being exploited or in risky situations. So it's really how do I bring  that sustainability lens to everyone around me and my function in my role, so that they can all become  sustainability ambassadors that's that's like my dream vision.

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Véronique Lerch 34:52

So that basically it's an integrated due diligence in the mindset of everybody. Exactly. Everybody. Yeah,  That's what I want. Yeah. Okay. Okay, that sounds good. I want to see that future I hope I will see it?  Again? Yeah. As for the Master, you know, is this like, we love season? 10 of the yes, you know? Yeah.  And we'll check what happened. But those, those visions. As we're getting towards the end of the  episode, just wanted to know if you have any, you know, final concluding words, if there's anything you  want to say to the people listening, if there's anything left?

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Inge Jacobs 35:29

Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for this opportunity. First of all, I think it's a great initiative to be able to  share experiences. And that's also how people learn is when they hear from others who have gone  through certain experiences or certain pathways in their life certain journey. So I think it's great that I  got this opportunity from you. And for the people who are listening. It's just, yeah, don't be afraid to  change and to experiment and to go out there, there's so many interesting things to be done. So don't  don't let yourself be blocked by certain maybe mental barriers or you know, or other barriers just be  open to change. For me, that's the biggest thing. I I feel like that flexibility. Curiosity is really something I  want to encourage people to have just and don't be afraid to, you know, you try something if it doesn't  work, you just do something else. I think that's something I've learned from living in. In the US. This is  the country where you know, you're being rewarded if you fail, actually. So I think it's quite quite  interesting to try different things. Because through the failure, you also learn and so yeah, don't don't be  afraid to go out there and try different things.

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Véronique Lerch 36:43

Thank you so much for this for this conversation. It was really a pleasure talking to you. And I'm really  happy we had the chance to talk a little bit what it means to work for the private sector. And we  encouraged more people to try to try it out and to do human rights from Yeah, working for the private  sector. So thank you so much.

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Inge Jacobs 37:05

Thanks to you. It was it was a pleasure talking to you again after so many years.  

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Véronique Lerch 37:09

That's true. Thanks.