Do not underestimate the influence you can have at the local level!

Do not underestimate the influence you can have at the local level!

Jingle Laura María Calderón Cuevas
Interviewer Véronique Lerch
Editing Brua | bruapodcasts.com

Transcript:

Lydia Malmedie 00:00

Two roads diverged in a wood and I, I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.

Veronique Lerch 00:14

Welcome to this episode of The Road Less Traveled. The Road Less Traveled is a project of the Center of human rights from the University of Padova and Global Campus of human rights. The project aims at exploring the less usual careers and career paths possible after a degree in human rights. We believe that there are no clearly defined career paths and routes to work with human rights. We need people working in all sorts of ways to contribute to making an impact in human rights. Our guest today graduated from the European master in human rights and democratisation and works now as deputy head of the LGBTI unit at the Berlin State Ministry for justice, diversity and anti-discrimination. Welcome to the podcast, Lydia.

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Lydia Malmedie 00:59

I’m really glad to be here.

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Veronique Lerch 01:01

So Lydia, maybe before we start conversation, I think we need to clarify a point because we had this discussion before. And we just started the discussion before starting. I call Berlin a city, but basically, you’re telling me to make sure that we understand that Berlin is a state. And I think it’s important to make this point for our listeners to understand what is the difference? And what is the impact on the work you’re doing? You know, that it is at the state at the state level, especially in a federal country, like Germany?

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Lydia Malmedie 01:37

Yes, exactly. I mean, yes, of course, Berlin is a city, but it is also one of the 16 states of the Federal Republic of Germany, and therefore, some of the work we do at sort of Berlin State level also impacts the federal level. So the national level, and it also means that there are sort of local municipalities within Berlin, which, you know, have their own jurisdiction in a way or carry out projects. On their own, in a way. So, I guess, because I work for the public administration, that distinction is, is is quite relevant. But of course, it’s the city as well, that we all know and love.

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Veronique Lerch 02:27

But it’s good, it’s good to make this clarification, I think it helps to understand maybe the impact of your work as well. So maybe can you tell us, in a few words, what your job consists of?

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Lydia Malmedie 02:41

So I’m basically an officer, kind of like a civil servant at the public administration of the state of Berlin. And that’s within the Ministry of that you mentioned before, so justice, diversity and non-discrimination or anti-discrimination. And within that we have within the anti-discrimination department, we have different units, and one of the units is for anything to do with lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans and inter persons needs and topics, basically. And I’m the deputy head of that unit. And together with my colleagues, we have different tasks, really. So maybe there are four. I would say maybe four main tasks. One is to provide political expertise or expertise for the political level. There’s also, kind of accompanying projects that we fund and that we, you know, review applications funding applications from, we also devise our own campaigns. So for example, I devised one in 2021 on lesbian visibility that was then visible all over Berlin, and I’m also the coordinator for a Berlin wide action plan for LGBTI issue so lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans and gender issues at the at the state level that we’re currently renewing.

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Veronique Lerch 04:19

I think that I would give a clearer idea of what you’re doing. And maybe what you can also tell us is in which way, I think it’s very concrete, you said is very concrete that we can imagine, you know, seeing this campaign and and you can see and for yourself, you can see the impact of your work. But what which difference did it make for you to have a master in human rights. I mean, do you feel that the human rights language, the human rights values that you learned during the master have helped you in, in particular for this job, or I remember that you said during the webinar we did together that actually, you were using more in your day to day you were using more than national or state legislation for the work you’re doing and not so often international standards. So maybe you can explain a little bit the way you you think it impacts your work still today?

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Lydia Malmedie 05:14

Yes, that’s definitely true, I would say. So, the international human rights language is not so much part of my daily, my daily job, really. We have different legislations also on state level, around anti discrimination that we refer to more and the international human rights sort of language, and also the knowledge about international human rights is, I think, yeah, it’s crucial, though, to sort of view my work in a broader context, I would say and put it into an international context. Yes, I think that’s mainly it and the I, there are a number of aspects that I really learned from the master or during the master, which, you know, at times are important. So that’s like, some of the sort of human rights, like some basis of human rights, I guess, for example, the test as to whether something is appropriate, necessary, and legitimate, like those kinds of, you know, those kind of balancing tests have proven really helpful in the past. And that’s definitely something that without the Human Rights Master, I wouldn’t be aware of. And further, maybe also, because I’m now within the Ministry, or our unit is located within the Ministry of Justice. You know, having a general grasp of legal language and topics related to it is actually beneficial to my work, I would say, it doesn’t manifest in sort of everyday work, but it is more the background information and the knowledge of it that I think has been really helpful.

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Veronique Lerch 07:18

And can I ask, when you study human rights, did you imagine that that type of work? You know, I think I never imagined, I never thought about what human rights are, because we always think about the state, you know, as a national state. And I think we very often forget the local level. So I’m wondering at what which point you started thinking about maybe working at that, at that level. And, and whether it’s just a chance, so you really looked for, for that opportunity.

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Lydia Malmedie 07:51

So before starting this position, I was working for human rights NGO, also working on LGBTI issues, more within the education sector, in the UK, in London. And there, I also engaged with the national level, and we sort of lobbied the national level, and I realized, you know, how important it is to have people kind of knowledgeable about the cause, but also maybe sympathetic to the cause in those kinds of key positions in a way. And my PhD was, in my PhD, I looked at public administrations way of dealing with complex problems and at the example of LGBTI, and while I looked at the EU as an actor, in a way, I, again, found that, you know, it really matters who’s in certain positions. And I kind of then felt that I wanted to be that person in a particular key position where I can make a change. So I guess, like getting this particular position wasn’t planned from the outset. But I think my sort of career path in a way led me to it, if you wish. So I’ve worked for the NGOs, sector for the third sector. I’ve worked for private sector, briefly. Yeah. And I felt I really now also wanted to experience the public sector and what can be done from that side of things in a way. And I returned to Germany, I’m yeah, I’m from Germany, but it was working abroad. And then I returned to Germany for my PhD. And when the funding ended, I was looking for jobs. And this was one that sort of, yeah, matched my, I guess, expertise and interest. And then it also worked out. So it’s a little bit of both I would say it’s, it’s in a way kind of, yeah, natural progression, maybe, but at the same time, if hadn’t been planned that way. And the fact that this job came up when I was looking was definitely by chance.

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Veronique Lerch 09:57

But it’s quite interesting because you have an experience from a lot of different sectors. So you’re able to compare is maybe not the point where maybe you can see what is the value added of working for the public sector and working at the level where you’re working. So what would you say is the specific impact you can have at that at that level? Or what is the satisfaction that you’re getting from working in for a public authority at the local level?

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Lydia Malmedie 10:24

I think it’s different aspects. So working at the state level, or more local level than, say, the federal or the international level, it’s definitely that I actually see the change that I’m sort of part of, when I walk the streets of Berlin that way. So you know, the the projects that we fund, I see their advertisements, I see their, you know, what they have to offer? And, yeah, and I hear my friends talking about, so I go to the events myself, that kind of thing. So that’s, I think, very satisfactory, compared to working maybe on an international level, where you work much more removed from the projects and the things that you fund or are administering or something like that, then I think in terms of, you know, forming politics, the public administration is a really important part of that, because as I mentioned earlier, we provide expertise to the political level. And therefore, while we’re not making politics, we’re sort of, you know, advising and shaping it, I would say.

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Veronique Lerch 11:39

What will be the the challenge of working for the public authority and working at that level, because one, one of the aspects that was mentioned in the webinar we did together was actually the change, because you were talking about the politics now the political level, the change of your counterparts at the political level, that can be challenging for maintaining the same policy line, or keeping the same quality for the worker, the same interest for the work you’re doing. Do you feel that’s a challenge or are there other challenges that you can that you can talk about, or that you can see in your in your daily work?

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Lydia Malmedie 12:18

So I think, I mean, one of the main challenges is, I think, first of all, fitting into the core set of public sector, basically, of, you know, a very bureaucratic structure. And being, I mean, there are people who, you know, start off their careers within the public sector, for example, and are kind of Korea civil servants. But that’s not the case for me, or many of my colleagues who have worked elsewhere. And in a way, sort of, you know, starting this position, even though I had many years of professional experience. Prior to that, it felt like, I was a complete newbie, like, I had no idea, like, it’s a completely different terminology of sudden and language that you work with. And, you know, you need to really figure out the hierarchies and the rules of the game in effect. That was very, very challenging. And also, you know, it’s a times incredibly frustrating. Because, yes, you need to really fit in. And I think after a while, you then sort of realize where there’s room for maneuver and the influence you can have, and you sort of foresee the tasks that are associated with certain developments, like you read something in the newspaper, and you then realize, oh, okay, so tomorrow, I will have to deal with this and a particular way. So that’s a good feeling when that starts to happen, and yet, you know, I’m also under no illusion. I mean, we are in a strict hierarchy. So we need to also kind of almost lobby within the organization for, you know, more sensitivity, perhaps towards the the topics that we deal with.

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Veronique Lerch 14:03

And when you say fitting in, I mean, do you do you mean more in terms of finding your space and your place in the hierarchy? Or do you mean, as well, in terms of the background that you might have, like, coming from the nonprofit sector coming from a human rights background? Do you feel like that was also a challenge?

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Lydia Malmedie 14:21

I guess that very much depends which part of the public administration you’re in. So because many of my colleagues are, you know, have some of the background have worked elsewhere? That’s not so much of a challenge there, I would say but depending on where you, you know, where you enter the public administration, that may well be quite difficult to then sort of, for people to relate to the experience you have had and as to what the way you see things and they perhaps don’t, or, those kinds of things, but at the same time, I mean, I think it’s it’s really, you know, there’s a lot of value of working within the public administration because the public administration needs to reflect their constituents and whether the public basically, and they need the kind of diverse expertise that people from all walks of life can can bring to it. And therefore, I think it’s so crucial for people to work with in the public sector, from all different kinds of backgrounds.

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Veronique Lerch 15:30

Yeah, no, I think it is really exciting to work at the local level for public administration child, you know, you will inspire a lot of a lot of graduates to follow your path. Is there anything you would? You would tell them? I mean, you would give advice, and, you know, if you were to give advice to a younger, less young graduate, of a master in human rights, is there anything in particular, you would tell them that would help them.

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Lydia Malmedie 15:58

that would help them work in the in the public sector?

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Veronique Lerch 16:01

Help them to to work for a public authority.

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Lydia Malmedie 16:06

Perhaps I would say, like not to underestimate, yeah, not to underestimate the influence you can have. Because in the end, of course, it is states that are signatories to human rights conventions, etc. But the implementation happens elsewhere. And, you know, a big part of that is a state level at the local level.

And the third sector is very much part of that as well, they need to sort of keep up the pressure for the public administration and for the, for political, for political powers to sort of make the changes that are needed. But yes, the there are some, I think, definitely key positions that people can sort of enter, and

then and then use the knowledge of how government works as well. Because, you know, I had studied political science, I have that master in human rights. In my PhD, I was working, you know, with lots of theories around public administration organizations, etc. And yet entering the public administration still proved eye opening in terms of the structures and the way things work. And that’s such crucial knowledge that is, that’s really valuable, basically. And that, I think, is it’s good, if, you know, human rights practitioners or human rights, people with human rights values, if they have that knowledge of how government works, whether they then stay in government, or whether they then, you know, go back into the NGO world, perhaps at a later stage. So it’s always going to be super helpful to know how things work.

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Veronique Lerch 17:49

And I guess, I mean, from what you said before, I guess being persistent, or being patient is definitely valuable, because you as you said, you you still it took you quite a while to learn the vocabulary and, and the structures, even though you studied it before. So that’s quite surprising to me that it took so long, so it really shows, you know, a complex public authorities can be.

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Lydia Malmedie 18:14

Yes, absolutely. So persistence and patience, I think, are definitely key words. And and I guess, like, at a high level of frustration, tolerance also helps. And I would say like, I guess, as an advice, if you’re planning to apply for, you know, any government position or any position in the public administration, it’s super helpful to have some sort of insider knowledge. And of course, that goes for, you know, all kinds of jobs, but perhaps even more, so here, make sure you familiarize yourself with the structures. And with the terminology. If you know, someone, you know, just have them talk about their everyday work to kind of get an idea of what it is you will actually have to do like the tasks I mean, a lot more in my experience is for example, written, right, like so you have, of course, you have a lot of meetings, but because of the hierarchy, and because a lot of, suggestions and decisions, etc, have to be signed off and have to be authorized by by your superiors, you spend a lot of time writing things down, basically. And then there’s also different forms of writing it down, etc. And so to, to kind of get an idea of what that looks like. I think it’s it’s really important if you can talk to someone who’s got that experience and inside knowledge.

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Veronique Lerch 19:46

You might get a lot of people kind of connecting with you after that.

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Lydia Malmedie 19:51

Bureaucracy, you know, to a certain extent, I guess works, at least on a formal level work similar in many different places. So you also have have this kind of bureaucracy in larger organizations, but, you know, if you before the only experience is working for smaller NGOs or within the academic settings, then that can be a very different working environment. And in order to, I guess, be successful in, in an interview, so you would have to, basically, study while you’re going into.

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Veronique Lerch 20:25

I think that’s always a good, good tip. I agree, I mean, they I worked for a large NGO, and we definitely had a very complex bureaucracy and, and a very complex system, it took a long, long time to get to, to get to know it, and to know you can influence and you can move things in such a large organization. So, I can I can relate to what you’re saying.

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Lydia Malmedie 20:52

There’s also always there’s the formal level, and then there’s the informal, right, so there are so many informal rules, again, within every setting, but I guess the, almost the surprise within, you know, strict bureaucracies is that most important rules aren’t written down, then, you know, and so you go into a system and where there’s a lot of emphasis on formal rules, and you think that’s it, and then you study those, and then you realize, oh, but that’s not even half of it, you need to kind of really, you know, immerse yourself and, and find out from from people, and over time, it it just takes time really to get to grasp with what the informal rules are.

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Veronique Lerch 21:33

And finding your allies, I guess, as well.

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Lydia Malmedie 21:35

Of course, finding your allies and other departments.

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Veronique Lerch 21:43

I think Berlin is because, I mean, we’re talking like now within within your your department within the state, but Berlin is also part of networks of different city networks. I was, I was wondering whether you felt that the local level of human rights is getting, I don’t know if you can call it the momentum, but it’s gettinga little bit more space and the human rights disclosures because I see more and more of those networks, and will be linked to this. I, there’s a quote from David Harvey in Rebel cities I like and I was wondering what you thought about this, which he says that “the question of what kind of cities we want cannot be divorced from the question of what kind of people we want to be, what kind of social relations we seek and what relation to nature we cherish”? So for me, it’s also do you feel that it really depends of which kind of cities we want, can really have an impact on the kind of future we want? Do you feel that that you can really shape this at the local level? And maybe which kind of future you you foresee yourself? I mean, if you will, able to dream about a better future? What would you wish? It is a lot of questions?

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Lydia Malmedie 23:05

Maybe in reaction to your first question in how far the more local or sub national level has an impact now, or has, like, more importance now, perhaps, than previously. I think this has been a result of some developments on national levels, like I mean, you know, we look at or, where basically, some governments didn’t really think too highly of human rights, and therefore, the local level becomes more important, and connections on those on that level become more important. But I mean, we see the opposite as well, we see, you know, regions, cities and regions in certain countries, declaring themselves LGBTI, free zones, etc. So, the networking goes on in different kinds of directions. And so I think it’s, I think it’s super important. And also in terms of globalization, I mean, this sort of segregation between the national, local, regional, sub national, like, all those different kinds of levels is not really, it’s not really perhaps as relevant as it used to be because it’s much more interconnected. And yes, and I think, therefore, it’s it’s crucial that cities, regions or entities at sub-national level forum forum, those kinds of networks, and your second question as to, you know, what do I foresee or what would I like to see cities to be like, I think there’s, I think there’s really a lot of leverage in people engaging where they live. And I think perhaps, that we’ve reached a level of globalization where it becomes a bit too much for a lot of people to be, you know, to try and be up to date and concerned with What’s going on in the rest of the world, and we still need to be aware, obviously. But I think it can be quite empowering to feel that you can actually change the place where you are and live and sort of, you know, perhaps sometimes at a smaller scale. And that also goes for perhaps human rights defenders or human rights activists. When I was doing the Master, I also always kind of envisaged myself working for the UN or, you know, the EU or another big international organization. And I have, you know, done internships and gotten experiences working at those levels. But at the same time, that feels very abstract sometimes, and it feels very removed, and you work, perhaps in a region or country that you don’t really feel part of. And I think that’s different when you work more at, you know, at City local level, I guess I would like to see people perhaps engaging more and yeah, and where they live and make sure that they connect with their neighbors and celebrate diversity in their house, for example. And not, not just see it as something that you need to change on a larger scale.

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Veronique Lerch 26:20

I totally agree. I’ve been in many situations where we talk about human rights in a room or I, we teach about human rights, and then people always go for something which is really far away in another country. And when we ever know, we like to think the number of where we are, you know, the city where, you know, it can be here as well. And I don’t know, sometimes people relate to human rights to something really far away. And they don’t see the way it relates to the city they live in and to the neighborhood, basically. And that’s really interesting to look at, actually, we have another graduate she did, who wrote a book about human rights at the city level. I should put a link on the podcast. I think what’s interesting, what you’re saying, so we talking about networks and, and, and, you know, network of city, and but you’ve been involved with a network of alumni. For six years, you’ve been like the president of the EMAlumni Association, which is a network of people who graduated from the European Massey and human rights suit. Why? Why did you put so much love and care that in that network? Why do you think it’s important for alumni to get involved in this network?

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Lydia Malmedie 27:39

Yes, that was a, it was a very intense, but also amazing rich time, I have to say, and, I mean, that’s how we know each other as well. So you know, I’ve met some amazing people there. That was definitely one of the really rewarding aspects. And why do we have to network? Well, I think as long as you know, organization, organized crime networks, as long as there’s a mafia, we need to be connected, and we need to network and we need to build bridges as human rights defenders and activists that I think the EMA alumni and Global Campus alumni, there’s so much potential in that I mean, you know, I would, I would just encourage everyone to really get involved in the mentoring program, or in other ways that you can become an ambassador in your local city or so because, you know, people, of course, not everyone graduating or entering will share the exact same values as you do. But the chances are, that you have a common language, and that you have a common understanding of, you know, what needs to be what I don’t know, what needs to be changed, perhaps to, you know, to further human rights and to establish certain values. And, and therefore, I think it’s, it’s crucial that we support each other in that, and it’s not about it’s not about getting a job because of a network or something, but it’s about hearing about a job because of the network that you then apply for it, and might get it but, you know, I think sometimes people don’t like the idea of networking, especially those in human rights, especially, you know, oftentimes women socialize in a way that they shouldn’t take advantage of networks, for example, and I think it’s, it’s really important that we see the difference between an unfair disadvantages, and just using the using the connections you have, as I said, not to get the job but to hear about the job in the first place. And yes, therefore, I think that’s, that’s super important. And of course, like being in the board or on the board gave me some really interesting insights into, you know, all sorts of ways that the master works and sort of, I don’t know, background information on how the funding works on the EU side, and some crucial skills I could develop and, you know, be that staff management or how to, you know, hold a board meeting with people in all sorts of different time zones. And this was before Corona, and before everyone did zoom, so I think we were kind of pioneers. Not that others didn’t do it. But I think, you know, when my colleagues started, starting using video conferences, and wondering how to how to organize virtually, like, I could really fall back on the experiences during that time, that we managed to build that organization, Alumni Organization.

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30:47

Now for sure. And that, I think, in a way, there’s some similarity with what we were discussing before about, you know, the network of, of cities saying, you know, there are actually cities and sub national level, which are actually quite hostile to human rights. So, we have to organize ourselves, you know, to support each other because it is it is a word, which is sometimes quite hostile to human rights defenders, and if we don’t find a way to support each other and grow and get also skills, you mentioned that definitely I agree, we can, we can use in different ways afterwards, after we’ve been involved in the association.

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Lydia Malmedie 31:27

I also teach at a university here in Berlin, and it’s, it’s a master’s in international masters for social work as a human rights profession. And students are similar to the EMA and Global Campus alumni, they’re from across the, across the globe, really, and I just wanted to share that as sort of a little bit of apprehension towards networking, it’s the same, it’s the same there and I had to, you know, we talked about this the other day, and how how important it is, because there doesn’t exist an alumni network yet. And I guess, while you’re, you know, doing the Master within your class, you don’t actually realize that you will all end up in various different positions where you can utilize each other’s contacts and knowledge and just tap into it. And we need that as a resource to, to work for the better and the good, greater good, I guess.

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Veronique Lerch 32:25

I think it’s a fascinating topic to think about social work and human rights. And it’s another area that hasn’t been looked at so much. So that definitely, I don’t know if many of them see themselves as human rights defenders. And if they can see that link so clearly as we might, for you. I don’t know, is there anything that brings you joy in your work that you want to share with us?

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Lydia Malmedie 32:58

It’s my colleagues really, I mean, I have some really fantastic people. I’m very glad to work with very, you know, self reflective, smart, fast, and it’s just a joy to be working together. And, unfortunately, sometimes the work within a public administration, and this may be as a word of caution, or something for people who, who are looking to enter the public administration, it can sometimes be quite solitary, because it’s all about, you know, who’s responsible and teamwork isn’t the natural models of operating. But there are ways that you can do that. And, and I think we managed quite well as a team and, and that’s really very rewarding and working with the projects that are funded by the Ministry as well, that’s, you know, working with the actors of civil society. And, we’re working towards the same aims. So that’s also really that’s, that’s my reward as well. And I learned a lot I learn a lot from them, and on what sorts of different topics so for example, I work on the intersectionality as well and multiple, I guess, people who belong to multiple minority groups. So LGBTI persons who, who have a disability, for example, and, you know, from the projects that I’ve been working with, in that context, I’ve learned an awful lot about all the barriers that are in this city or in, in everyday work that are posed. Real hindrance to to full participation. And I’m very grateful for for those experiences and learning experience or learning opportunities that say,

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Veronique Lerch 34:55

I think you make the case for working at the local authority level. It’s definitely very convincing. As we’re getting close to the end of this conversation, is there anything that you would like to share in terms of maybe books or music that you really like? And that helps you in tough moments, because as we said, you know, you’re working in your mind, it is not always easy. And is there anything that helps you with your energy or your mood?

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Lydia Malmedie 35:28

Well, I was thinking, I was thinking about this, and I do have a small magnet on top of my lamp, basically on my desk, and it says, enduring freedom. And I think that captures it well, sometimes because we live in times that are quite complex, and where, you know, it’s easy to be overwhelmed and with everything that’s going on, but also all the chances that we have the opportunities that most of us are the people who attended the EMA (European Master in Human Rights and Democratisation), you know, I consider myself very privileged for having had the chance to do that, and knowing so many people and having all these different doors I could go through in terms of career, etc. And sometimes that can feel quite overwhelming. And I have to remember that that’s okay. So Enduring Freedom seems, seems like an interesting way to put that it’s, you know, freedom is always something that so positively.... It has such a positive association. But it can be hard sometimes as well, when you have a lot of it. And at the same time, you need to treasure that. So I don’t know what it is a term I suppose is a good reminder of my privilege, but also be that it can be hard, and that’s okay to be hard for it to be hard. And I shouldn’t be looking just for the, you know, the simple solutions, which which are there as well. I could just, follow certain certain paths and not explore others. And if if you don’t just do that, but you explore and you go out there then, expect that can be difficult at times.

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Veronique Lerch 37:17

I think these are beautiful words that conclude the conversation. Thank you so much, Lydia, for being with us today.