Finding clarity through media literacy

Finding clarity through media literacy

Jingle Laura María Calderón Cuevas
Interviewer Véronique Lerch
Editing Brua | bruapodcasts.com

Transcript

Mihajlo Lahtov  00:04

Two roads diverged in a book and I, I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference.

Véronique Lerch  00:12

Welcome to a new episode of our podcast the road less traveled. This is a project of the centre of human rights from the University of Padova and Global Campus of human rights. With this podcast, we aim at exploring the less usual careers and career paths that are possible after a degree in human rights. We started it because we strongly believe that we need people doing human rights in many different ways. And my guest today is joining us from North Macedonia. Mihailo is an experienced media literacy trainer, project manager and communication specialist. He has two do decades of experience in research and working in media and journalism. He specialized in civic engagement and participation, communication and media literacy and we will learn more about what media literacy is with him. He is currently the project director for the USAID media literacy project 'YouThink' implemented in North Macedonia by IREX, a global development and education organization and three local partners. Welcome to the podcast! Thank you, nice to be here. So before we start out, we decided in one of our previous podcasts that we're going to introduce yourself for people to know or we look like that was a recommendation from our guest Federico. So I'll start and then encourage you to introduce yourself as well. So I'm Veronique I'm rather petite. I have a bob and my hair is red and a little bit gray. And I have freckles. I know it's a tough exercise.

Mihajlo Lahtov  02:06

Usually Yes. Usually the tasks that do not look very complicated are the worst ones. So this sounds very simple. But I am trying to find words to present and portray myself. I am Mihajlo. I already finished my summer vacation so I am very tanned. I don't have a lot of hair I will not say that I don't have at all but I am not really a person with a lot of hair. But I have a beard. I am wearing a white shirt that suits me. I can see this in the camera. So that's me.

Véronique Lerch  02:57

Oh, that's a nice one. All right, thank you so much for this. So in my intro, I could also have added the author of two media literacy publication 'media literacy for youth, media and civil society', published by the Institute of Communication Studies and 'why media literacy matters' published by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. So I think it would be interesting maybe for our listeners, if you could describe in a few words what media literacy is.

Mihajlo Lahtov  03:29

Media literacy is everything but a definition. So usually, in the last 20 years, people are trying to define media literacy, there are many different definitions that I'm not really fond of definitions, especially in this field, because for us, media literacy is about critical analyzing everything we see in the media and having in mind that lately we not live with media, we live in the media. So, we are surrounded by media everywhere. So everything that we will critically analyze will be somehow connected with some media message or media content. So if we learn how to how to critically analyze things, we see I think, we are really on a good track to make better life decisions or more informed, better informed life decisions. So in a definition, media literacy comprises all these important skills and knowledge, to access media content, but also to analyze, evaluate and create media messages. And these components are very important for all of us because this is how we also as experts in the field separate From each are divided from each other because some of us are working on more on media analysis, some media evaluations, like if this is professional journalism or not, if this is disinformation, misinformation, different types of information disorder. So this is another, we also work a lot of media safety, security, data protection, all these more components are somehow part of media literacy.

Véronique Lerch  05:36

But I guess, from the moment you started working on media literacy, and today, there, it's been a major change. I mean, it's, it sounds a bit dramatic, but it's true. I mean, I think it's never, we've never seen a change like this in terms of, of media. And the way you did probably media literacy, when you started working on media literacy has nothing to do with the way you're working on it today. Because also, like our understanding of media changed, as well now with, you know, with social media, and also the fact that less and less professional media exist, and, you know, like the lack of investment in journalism, so all of this completely changed the landscape. So I think that's why we also start to talk about more of digital literacy. So I'm wondering the way you manage to adapt your trainings to this new to this new world, which has nothing to do with the word you started working?

Mihajlo Lahtov  06:36

I hope I did, I hope I did. When I presented myself, I said, I have a beard, and

Véronique Lerch  06:44

maybe those changes

Mihajlo Lahtov  06:48

is true, I am that old. I can make comparisons between the times when I was younger, I was a kid, what types of what type of media we had there, and how we communicated what was important. But also, I can analyze the media landscape. Now the media situation now with the emergence of, especially with the emergence of internet, new media, social media, and how things change and said, things have changed in the last 20 years, that's for sure. But things are changing dramatically, even in very, very shorter periods. I mean, even now, when we, when we speak, things are moving we have now the main trend is artificial intelligence. So everyone is talking about artificial intelligence, it really influenced the way we interact, the way we communicate, but also influence the way that we think and the way we work. But in general, there are some things even though media do not look the same. For example, with traditional media, we had this one way directed communication, meaning that we were recipients of media messages. And we were receiving media messages. And there was a little, very little space to react. For example, my grandpa, when he was watching TV at the time, we had only one TV channel when she was watching TV news. And if he didn't like the news, or if he was wasn't agree with what we're watching and listening to, that the only option he had was to throw the remote control or to yell at my grandma, there was no other option available at the time or the options to interact the options for for multi direct communication were very, very small, you could write a letter to the editor hoping that the editor will publish or will somehow repair the damage change the disinformation that was aired or published. So but these were very limited options, and now we have completely different reality. In general. What I want to say is that some basics havent changed. We have kind of three ways of understanding the world we learn from direct experience, we learn from listening and observing others and we learn from media representations. Having in mind that in the last decade or more, our direct experience is becoming smaller and smaller. We do not learn, or we do not listen and observe others as we used to do. I remember 30 years ago, or 40 years ago, when I was a kid, we had guests constantly. Every day someone was coming to our house, people were communicating, discussing in different kinds of platforms, or they were doing this tête-à-tête they were doing this in person. Today, mostly, we'll learn from media representation. And we have to no one take that media. And this is number one lesson in media literacy, that in media just represent the reality, they are not reality, they are a construct, they are construction, they are just representing one part of reality. And this, even though it sounds simple, it can have complex issue, and even older party senior participants at my trainings do not really understand the idea behind so I tried to explain, for example, you have a life event, I don't know, protest, and someone is streaming it live. And you believe that you see the whole reality the whole picture, but you don't, you see only one angle of the camera, one angle of the story of the one who is representing. So that's why we say that even the news or documentary series are not completely representing the core reality they're trying to represent to construct one part of the reality. So once we know this, once we understand this, we will start critically observing the media code. And we will understand the world better. We will understand how patterns of storytelling and news coverage, news coverage can distort people's understanding of real events, situations, and people. So that's my media literacy, first media literacy lesson for the beginning,

Véronique Lerch  12:24

I understand what you're saying, but it is it is true that today we are processing a large amount of information, much more than as you said that the time of your grandpa, and our brains cannot process so much information. So actually, the way we function is usually by confirmation bias. So we're actually looking for the information that matches our beliefs and our opinions. So how do you work with that? You know, with the way our brains work in terms of simplifying the information and also looking for the information? What I mean is that we're going to use our critical thinking more towards the media information we receive that actually doesn't match what we what we believe. So how do you work with that?

Mihajlo Lahtov  13:15

that's a very, very important issue, really, because the new book of Yuval Noah Harari called 21 LESSONS FOR THE 21ST CENTURY. And he begins with this quote, I will not be able to properly quote, but in general, he says that nowadays, we are so much bombarded by all kinds of information from information from everywhere. And the censorship doesn't work like in the good old times with blocking the flow of information, but with overflowing the platform. So, this is what we are experiencing, we have so much information and we cannot filter properly what is important for us and what is useful for us. So what we need nowadays is clarity. And this is where we try to help people like me people who are studying media literacy or different media connections, the importance of media and journalism. This is where we can support to find clarity and to choose what is relevant what is done in a professional way in an objective way to separate it from shoot to separate it from terrible journalism. And so there is this excellent Book from 1967 from Guy Debord, and it's called the Society of spectacle. And this is a call to arms against passive spectatorship, because in his book, he says that images and sensations actually replace genuine human interaction. And media messages actually define how people what people should need and what people want in order to feel fulfilled in order to find happiness in life. So that's what we get from the media messages. But he appeals, that instead of being just spectators, we turn into active citizens. And that's another role of media literacy. That's why I love media literacy, because we motivate people to become active. And with the new media, we have 1000s millions of new possibilities and options. We can organize ourselves for an important cause. We can organize a protest, if we realize that someone is trying to open a factory in our place that will destroy our environment, destroy our land. And we can do this much more easier than we were supposed to we could this 30/40 years.

Véronique Lerch  16:37

So I hear from what you're saying that you're what motivates you, in doing media literacy is transforming people into active citizens. That was actually something I was going to ask you is like, when I look at your career, I can see you know, that media literacy and every single one communication and journalism is really like a red thread in your career and a very coherent one very strong one. I mean, if I compare it to other profile of people I've talked to, so I'm really wondering, you know, it feels like you have no doubt that this is what you have to work on. It sounds like a mission. And I wonder where that comes from, where this passion comes from, for this specific topic.

Mihajlo Lahtov  17:20

I have been active citizen, all my life, I don't remember that I missed a protest in my country. And I was even bringing my daughter since she was two or three. So she still remembers all the gatherings protests, strikes that we were participating. But in general, I'm working in the field of media and communication for more than 25 years. And I had a chance to study human rights and democracy. The famous Erma studies at San Diego and bologna university. But again, I was kind of focused on my topic on freedom of expression, free media, so but probably, you will confirm, being a human rights activists as well that all the human rights are kind of interdependent, they're interconnected. We cannot speak about good economies, or rule of law if we don't have free media and free journalism and freedom of expression. So all these things are somehow interconnected. And this is why I love human rights because human rights are teaching us how to be human how to be better, people. And I think that the role that media can play in this segment is very, very important. And, for example, I was always interested in how media represent different communities, diverse people and communities. That's why my master thesis was about how media are portraying different national minorities with a case study in Bulgaria. So I was analyzing several media outlets, newspapers and how they present ,represented portrayed is national minorities, I realized that the situation with Roma is actually the worst. And then we come to the whole theory of of structural racism, structural racism with a complex system, how the racism is developed, maintained and protected. It depends from the institutional practices from cultural representations, and different social norms that work to reinforce these racial inequalities. So this is what I concluded it was, it is an old paper from 2007 that I still remember, I was fascinated at all these, all these newspapers were focusing on topics, such as crime and criminal actions when they were talking about the Roma community. But what was really fascinating is that in the title of the text whenever Roma perpetrator or accused or was in, in question, in title, you will see the name, Roma, and even some of the more humiliating words for Roma. But for example, you would hear title, young Roma, boy attacked senior woman is obvious, but you will never see this for any other community. This is now I'm getting back to your question about confirmation bias the media. We use also media to find confirmation for our ideas, for our opinions, for our standpoints. I had a professor in Bulgaria who was saying, we do not buy newspapers to read what's new, we buy newspapers, to find confirmation for our step towards why we basically read columns and so on. So you need media for we recreate already already the present prejudice or stereotype generalizations in the society. This is how people function. And to cut my story short, my point is this. If you're a media literate, and you understand how media function, you understand how they work, you understand all the tricks they use, and how the media message is being created, and what methods and techniques are used to attract our attention. So then, I think you know what I think I'm sure of it. Because there are, there is evidence from all of this empirical research that we are doing, you can take more critical stance towards what you read, what you watch, and what you listen to. And by doing so, as I said at the beginning, you can do better choices in life.

Véronique Lerch  22:50

I do agree with you. I'm just wondering to which extent, you know, we can kind of fix the problem by doing training, when actually education, the education system schools are not, in my opinion appropriate for the world we live in. So everything you're talking about, you know, critical thinking, listening skills, human interaction, are not skills that we learn at school. So how can we, you know, we spend years and years of our life at school not learning those skills, and then suddenly as others, we have to learn the skills? Isn't it a bit too late? I mean, don't we need a remodeling of education system and not just, you know, a one class on digital literacy from time to time about rethinking of the education system to do what you're talking about.

Mihajlo Lahtov  23:47

The media literacy is just an extended, extended literacy. It's functional literacy. It's a lifelong project. It's a lifelong learning process. You are, there is no scale of this person is completely media literate. And this one is super media literate? No, we are constantly becoming, I would say, let's say, more media literate in life, but this will depend from a knowledge and an experience. So I don't know if you have a chance to read. It's a very old book from now it's more than 60 years old, from Brazilian Professor of pedagogy Paulo Freire: The Pedagogy of the Oppressed. So this book was written in the 60s, late 60s. And he was active late 60s Beginning on 70s most of his life spending in exile or jail. But if we read it now it is still very fresh. And we realize that we haven't make an important move, or important step in this direction, because he says that the whole education is this banking model of education, that the fundamental nature of our education is narrative. So someone is narrating, students are listening. And their task is to reproduce what they heard and what they learn. This is the model, and it's a terrible model. And why we have to ask, Hi, we are still using this model. In 2023, this model hasn't changed. And there are there are so many programs, projects, reforms, initiatives. And I would say you're in Macedonian education system, you will find exactly the same model. So what we are trying to do, the project that I work, it's not only to introduce media literacy, in the formal education, what we do, and we introduced media literacy, not as a separate subject, but we introduced through different topics and activities, I think from first grade, to nine grade, high school, the whole high school, and university level. So we are including media literacy topics, in the curricula, the formal approach, that's why this project is revolutionary, I would say that, for the first time, enter the system, when we enter the system is not important that they learn the definition of media and media literacy is important that they have discussion. They ask questions, because only questions will take us to the right knowledge. Only when we ask we open the Pandora's box without question and, and we learn but we also create, or we are also innovative. We are introducing new things, we find new knowledge and new things. So this is no it's not easy. It's not easy. We work with teachers, from many schools, we train them, and but it's not easy to change the mindset. Because when we ask them to prepare their modules and their presentation, they start with a definition. What is who cares? What is media? Not really, who cares about the definition of media or whatever. It's important to, to use the what we learn to use in our real life, and to understand how the world functions and how media functions in our particular case.

Véronique Lerch  28:14

I understand you, I'm a lawyer by training. So we like definitions. But I agree with you, I think what counts is what it does. And I think you use a quote on your LinkedIn profile that I really like I think that fits what you're saying is that media literacy is going to make the difference whether kids are a tool of the mass media or whether the mass media is a tool for the kids to use. So I think that in the in the world we live in, I think this is a very important point. But if you allow me, I would like to take a step back and look again at you and your career. I know you don't like to talk so much about you. But I think it's interesting to know how you ended up in human rights because your first study was in in Slavic languages, philology. And I'm interested to know why you started philology. And at which point you knew that you wanted to study human rights as well. And you went into that studies in Sarajevo and Bologna of human rights.

Mihajlo Lahtov  29:18

Yeah, I studied Philology, Slavic languages, including Polish. And the but at a certain moment, I realized that this is too slow for me. Too slow to slow. Yes, it's a it's a field where it's very interesting. I really like philology in a certain way, especially Lexicology. And now, a little digression. I was part of the team that produced a media literacy Pictionary, Macedonian and Albanian. It was a really an impressive result at the end because we ended up with more than 700 words, media words related to media literacy, media communication, and so on. So there are always some connections. And as I said before, that everything is interconnected. You cannot be only philologist in your life, but especially, especially in new trends, especially how the Life Dynamics is changing lately, we understand that it you cannot choose a profession and believe that this is a, I am a lawyer, and I will spend my whole life only reading books related to law and learn about law. it's impossible, because things are so connected, that you are a lawyer, but also human rights activist. But also, you are some kind of media professional because you are creating media messages, and you know a lot about technical media things, you knew that there is this echo before we started and how to fix it and what we need and what kind of microphone and so on. So you also gain knowledge and skills in many different fields. And that's our future. This is unavoidable. So we cannot say this guy is a philologist. That's where he goes. No. And then at a certain moment, I realized, as I said that human rights, especially those rights related to freedom of media, freedom of expression, freedom of gathering, and so on, are really important to me. And I want to gain more knowledge and learn more about specifics in this field. So I found the master in bologna as a great chance to do this. And I'm very happy. I am starting my PhD now in Belgrade. Everything needs to be balkan can can already do joking, but my PhD in Belgrade will be on contemporary arts and media. Oh, wonderful. Yes. Again, it will be related to media literacy, but topics that are somehow related to advertising. How media advertising influence children, how video games influence children, new platform like YouTube Tiktok, these are my latest interests. So this is my my path. I don't I sometimes I don't even know what takes me there. But if it if it sounds interesting, and I think that this is also part of my mission here on earth, then I go.

Véronique Lerch  33:14

But it's interesting, though, because you seem so you seem so convinced that this is your path, it seems to be such a strong belief, you know, and you seem to be led by curiosity and passion. So do you feel like there's a lot about also trusting your intuition that this is your path? And you know, did you ever doubt or did you were you ever pushed by your family to study something else.

Mihajlo Lahtov  33:39

that is interesting. No, no, my my family, if you ask my father, what were my studies? My bachelor philosophy. He never learned that I actually studied philology. And he knows that I do something related to media and now media literacy. For him, this is too abstract. And this is my biggest failure because I fail to somehow influence my parents on the importance to be more media literate to be more active in even though No, maybe I'm wrong, probably. Not directly, but indirectly through all these discussions that we had, especially in the previous political system. When we talked a lot about this autocracy that we had in Macedonia for almost 10 years. I think that these discussions were very productive. So in general, I would say that media literacy is definitely not only media literacy, but everything related to media, including the freedom of expression, freedom media, are very important components of my life, not only a professional direction, but also the lifestyle in the way of understanding things and living, I don't care about having a big car, and I don't know, otherwise, I will do some business. Try, try to be a businessman. But this is how I, I want to live my life. And this is the direction I want to take.

Véronique Lerch  35:46

You were that clear already in high school, or that that became clear during your studies of philology. And then you started realizing the importance of media literacy. Sorry, I'm insisting on this. I'm just very curious, you know, at which point you have such a clarity, because your clarity is very striking.

Mihajlo Lahtov  36:03

It is strong now. But of course, it was not wrong at the time, even though I loved reading books. So in high school in primary school, I knew that whatever I do in life will be connected in a way with reading, then life is it's very difficult to have this very strong idea, who do you want to become in a very early age, because then you get disappointed because you want to be a doctor so badly, and then some things change in your life. So then you get, and you get disappointed. In my situation, very often I wanted to leave the river of life to take me to places that seem interesting. And this is how I ended up in media literacy, because I started reading some articles and books. And this really sounded very interesting, because previously, I worked a lot from the other side. We were training and strengthening the capacity of those who were producing the news and the media content, media messaging. So the journalists media professional, then I understood that we have to, if not trained, but also we have to speak with those who are receiving these media messages on the other. So things are changing, and I'm very happy. How things ended up for me.

Véronique Lerch  37:48

Wonderful, would you what would you give as advice to graduates, you might be a bit more lost about what to do with a future, what will be your pieces of advice to them?

Mihajlo Lahtov  38:02

My piece of advice would be curiosity. So you need to be curious. And you need to be hard working, of course. So whatever you choose, you need to invest hard work. So this is what I'm repeating to everyone, to my students, to participants of my trainings of my events. And even when we train trainers, this is kind of a higher level of training, training of trainers. And I have to I need to explain them that training will not make them trainers, this is just the beginning. You need to start leading, getting interested in the topic with all these possible articles, podcasts, do some online workshops and trainings and getting deeper and deeper into your field. And this is it. This is my advice. And this is my advice to my daughter. She is very, she has talent for music, not for sports. Let's put it this way. And then these talents, we discover that from very early age. So she started piano when she was very young. And she was very good until the moment we expected that she would train more than two hours per day, because there were some big concerts on and on. And she found a way how to quit this because it was an interesting so much for her to spend more than two hours on the piano. And now she's a drummer by the same story, and I'm trying to explain that whatever you do in life, first you need to have a talent. You need to like this and she likes it. But then the most important thing is to invest time and effort to become better. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense, you can be a talented drummer, but if you do not spend at least half an hour practicing. And that's, that's my, my tip, my advice for everything. You can like media literacy as a topic, be sure to not read, and the more in this field and getting interested in getting deeper in this.

Véronique Lerch  40:36

Absolutely. And as you as we said at the beginning, it's a it's a field is changing so much that you cannot rest on the knowledge required at one point, you need to be curious about all the changes that are happening and trying to always find new ways to bring that knowledge to people. But as we said, as well, you know, it is it is a little bit of a difficult world in terms of the digital world we live in, where there's a lot of challenges with deep fakes, and sometimes it gets a little bit maybe disheartening or difficult or not motivating to see that, you know, the training are not resulting in something you you would like. So I mean, for me, the two Question one is, you know, what keeps motivating you? And what brings you joy in your work? And, and maybe you know, what helps you when, when things get tough? Is there something in particular that helps you to get through?

Mihajlo Lahtov  41:31

the second question first, because it's so easier.

Véronique Lerch  41:38

Yeah, it's a lot of questions.

Mihajlo Lahtov  41:40

I think it's my family partner and my daughter, I know that I'm approaching my 50. And I think in life can become tough, that's for sure. And they never remained that. You have to have patience and, and invest, of course, in yourself and people around you, and you can expect that things can get better. You know, there's this interesting story, it's kind of an anecdote of a priest, actually. And a person came to him, and he started complaining that everything went very bad things are really bad in his life. And he said, take a little paper and write, it will pass and put it on your door. And every morning, you wake up, you see. Time passed. After a while that guy came to the priest again, and he said, everything changed. Everything is again, great. My life is very good. Now, thank you very much, and the priest, said 'but don't remove the paper'. Because this will pass as well. So we have to be aware that these are interchangeable, good and bad, that constantly changing. We cannot leave our perfect life without bad and weak moments.

Véronique Lerch  43:17

Maybe this is what your dad thinks that you studied philosophy. You should give him lessons like this, of course. And the other question, yeah, is like what brings you joy, maybe in your work? What motivates you in your work?

Mihajlo Lahtov  43:38

I haven't thought about this a lot. This is such an interesting topic that you actually, you can not be bored while you are reading. I don't know, I love to spend every evening reading about different it's not okay to say reading about media literacy, media literacy is such a huge field. So we either speak about as an artificial intelligence or information disorder. I don't know whatever social media and about the new social media platform from meta and what will this influence and so on. So I really love doing this and spend time there is a very interesting author Peter Pomerantsev. So this is my advice to your listeners and to you if you haven't had a chance to read his books. Peter Pomerantsev is a British journalist. his family emigrated to UK many years ago, but that he returned when he was when he finished his studies he returned to Moscow and lived there for 10 years. And he wrote this. Nothing is true and everything is possible. It's a great book is something that I read recently. This is my recommendation for for the listeners to understand the propaganda to understand how the information flows work, how the propaganda works. And so it's remarkable book.

Véronique Lerch  45:31

He does believe that some things are true. I hope.

Mihajlo Lahtov  45:36

It depends. It depends from the standpoint from our steps in our life.

Véronique Lerch  45:44

Fortunately, we don't have time anymore to discuss about truth or not. But is there any concluding words as we reaching the end of the podcast? Any concluding words from your side? Before we close?

Mihajlo Lahtov  45:59

I don't really know. I think that we talked about clarity, or we talked about the importance of media literacy and why it is important to understand how media functions and how to make better choices in life. So I would say this would be this would be no, no words of wisdom.

Véronique Lerch  46:24

Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, thank you for this conversation. And yeah, keep doing good work and keep this clarity.

Mihajlo Lahtov  46:33

Thank you. Thank you for inviting me to be guest of this popular and interesting podcast.

Véronique Lerch  46:40

Thank you. Thank you so much.