Follow your thoughts!

Follow your thoughts!

Jingle Laura María Calderón Cuevas
Interviewer Véronique Lerch
Editing Brua | bruapodcasts.com

Transcript

Mfon Udechukwu  00:03

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I, I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.

Véronique Lerch  00:18

Welcome to a new episode of our podcast the road less traveled. This is a project of the Center of human rights from the University of Padova and Global Campus of human rights. With this project and this podcast, we aim at exploring the less usual careers and career paths that are possible after a degree in human rights. We started this project because we believe that we need people doing human rights in all sorts of ways. Today, we have a guest that is definitely doing human rights in a very different way. She's a graduate of international relations and Human Rights Forum is a dedicated community coordinator at WE robotics, blending a passion for human rights advocacy with a commitment to promoting responsible data and technology use. Welcome to the podcast MFON.

Mfon Udechukwu  01:07

Thank you so much, Veronique. It's a pleasure to be here.

Véronique Lerch  01:11

It's a pleasure for us to talk to you. And especially because you're working on a very, very niche and a very, yeah, a very new area of work. And I think this is going to be a very interesting conversation. And I hope it's going to inspire a lot of graduates to work in, in this area. So maybe to kick off this interview, you could tell us a little bit about your current jobs. So as I said, You've been working for the past 18 months as a community coordinator at WE robotics, and it's an NGO that really aims as far as I understood as shifting power regarding technology, and making sure that we ask ourselves the question a little bit more about who is using technology and for what purpose and not so much what the technology is about. So can you tell us a little bit more about your work?

Mfon Udechukwu  02:03

Thank you. So I'm in 2001, I joined with robotics, maybe first I give a brief overview of the robotics and the work we do to give you a better context. So we robotics is a nonprofit organization that CO facilitates the flying labs network. The Flying labs network is made up of drone experts and professionals spread currently across 40 countries. So these drone professionals work in different sectors, from health, to agriculture, education, climate action, as well. And so currently, I work as community coordinator, with flying labs in Africa and Latin America. I started out as an intern in 2001. And at the end of my internship, I got offered a full-time position. So my job function involves providing daily operational support to flying labs in these two continents, which spans around over 20 countries currently. So basically, we have flying labs in Asia, Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean. My work covers Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean. And these combines possibly around 25, or over 25 countries in this continent. And aside from my daily work, which evolves around providing operational support, I have also been fortunate to participate in projects and activities that aims at strengthening the drone ecosystem in the global south. So much of our work is focused on the responsible use of drones and robotics in the global south especially, and to accelerate the sustainable development goals on the human rights side of my career, which is possibly what drew me to my current role. I would say I have been fortunate to work at an organization that allows me to explore the other side, the other passion I have. So which means that I get to also work on things that aligns with my kind of vision for how I feel like emerging technologies and human rights should coexist. So in 2002, I go to work with about seven flying labs. When I say flying labs I'm basically just like in numbers, seven countries, I go to work with them on a working group to promote the ethical use of data for Don't project. And the main objective of this working group was to collaboratively create a data ethics handbook containing relevant use cases on previous problems and solutions regarding data ethics, ethics. Maybe if you want, I can provide additional information about the working group and divide.

Véronique Lerch  05:26

I think it's fine for the moment, I think it's enough information, I guess, for, you know, for our listeners to understand the type of work that you're doing, but maybe to just go back to the, to what you were saying, you know, you're saying that you have this passion for emerging technology. And I was wondering when, you know, when did this passion start? And also, I think when when we talk prior to this interview, you did mention that, you know, working in this field is, is actually easier for, for younger people, because it's a novelty, and everybody has to learn. So in a way, there's no disadvantage of being young. So I think if you could also tell us the way you are building your knowledge in this area, there is an evolving area, and where there's novelty every every week, if it's not every day. So could you tell us a little bit more about that? When did that start? And are you building your knowledge?

Mfon Udechukwu  06:20

Yeah, so about three years ago, I, maybe more than three years ago, I began to ask myself questions around human rights, and in touch intersection between human rights and technologies. On one hand, I could see the benefit of merging technologies, I could see how they can support communities and people, especially in disaster management, and several applications. But on the other hand, I have questions around the balance between using these technologies, and also respecting fundamental human rights. So these questions just get coming in my head, and I would read articles about it. And I remember one of the first courses launched by the Global Campus on human rights was on child rights and technology, which aimed at helping parents or maybe been aware of the impact of technology on children in terms of privacy data, or data and consent. So I did sign up for this course. Not sure how it went, or if I completed it, but I do remember signing up. And yeah, those were my first, the early days of exploring the intersection between human rights and technology. And from then on, I got to work with a nonprofit based in Austria, called artificial intelligence for a development agency. And much of our work was around advocacy for AI. I was fortunate to participate in conferences where I got to speak about the responsible use of AI, especially in Africa. So this is how my career path in this field evolved. Until now, like I mentioned over discussion earlier, it's an ever evolving field with new regulations, or some countries are well advanced in terms of regulations, while other countries or continent are still in the process of developing regulations for it. So which means there is a learning curve for anyone interested in getting into the field. But also, there's still the challenge of finding specific postgraduate courses that covers human rights and technology. There's quite a few because I've done my research. And I've thought about going back to school to study this specific field. So it's still evolving, and there are lots of papers and resources. But most importantly, I think working along with robotics and flying labs, I get to experience firsthand the benefits of using these technologies. I get to learn and I get to unlearn as well. Some of the maybe biases that has that has been seen or turned around using drones or imagined technologies for social good. I get to learn differently, as I work with flying labs every day.

Véronique Lerch  09:34

Is there is when you're talking about unlearning. Regarding technology, do you have maybe a specific example of something that you had to unlearn, that you feel like it's something maybe that we keep repeating about technology and is not true?

Mfon Udechukwu  09:52

Yes, it's not that it's not true. It's just that there are two sides to every story and there's no one size fits all approach to achieving international development. So much of the reaction in the past around emerging technology has been with caution. And possibly in the past, they have also been used negatively, maybe due to lack of regulations. So I got to unlearn that, you know, beyond the stereotypes in courts around these technologies, they can actually accelerate Sustainable Development Goals, and can also actually foster some of the principles enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

10:42

Maybe we could give one example of the way local communities as, as used technology to to illustrate what you're saying,

Mfon Udechukwu  10:52

okay, I can start with one being a disaster management and disaster response. Any disaster threatens the welfare and health of people, even more so when the in large scale and proportionally significant impact. But with a rapid and effective response mechanism, disasters can be managed to mitigate the loss of life and the challenge it imposes on the society. So one way people have often used drones in the Global South, and possibly in many other areas. I do not have exact example. But I can reference the earthquake that happened earlier on in the year in Turkey. But beyond this incident, I have witnessed firsthand the work of flying labs in this regard. When looking at disaster response, when there is like a crisis, for example, a landslide incident that happened in Syria alone. A few years ago, some of our flying labs, colleagues were part of the first responders who were on site on ground to be able to, to help the other agencies, especially the government agencies to collect immediate data on the affected area. So what drones can do in this regard is help of first responders to have accurate information around the specific area, especially where access is difficult. Maybe the due to the disaster in place. So in place of satellite imaging, you can use drones to collect accurate information to assess the level of damage and also be able to make the informed decision to be able to help the affected population. So in disaster management, and even disaster preparedness, we've had a project where flying labs have mapped areas, areas that are prone to disaster to flooding. So they go the correct like we drones map out this area and are able to provide the government with information to help them prepare properly for such situations. That is for disaster management. And also drones have been used by our organization and also the flying labs for medical cargo delivery of drugs, especially to hard to reach communities. In I think 2022 and 2021. At the peak of the COVID pandemic, we were fortunate to be part of the organizations that delivered COVID vaccines and other essential medication to very, very far, hard to reach communities. So this is also another way drones are being used for humanitarian and medical purposes. And on the agricultural side, there have been lots of projects around using drones for food security to strengthen food security. And all of this is what have been fortunate to witness either directly or indirectly through the work of flying labs. Many of them have supported farmers in areas such as pesticides, fertilizers spraying to distribute chemicals equally and accurately to plants. And the most, the most beautiful part when it comes to agriculture is that traditionals good typically take around them one day, or days actually to complete for you At Large scan area of land, but with drones, you get to do this in one hour, which is really fast. And also the safety as well, when you when you look at spraying a large farm, and also the farmers or the sprayers have to wear the knapsack spring, traditionally going into the farm, there is a danger of them being exposed to the chemicals and also being exposed to possible snake bites, and threats. But with drones, this already cuts down such exposure and makes the work faster.

Véronique Lerch  15:44

Thank you. I think that's a good illustration of the way we can use robotics to advance human rights and, and foster development. So I think it's, it's really easy to understand why you get passionate about emerging technologies. As you said, this is this is a bit of a new turn in your career. And it's been happening in the last few years, but your passion, your other passion, the passion for human rights that you mentioned, as well, has been going on for much longer. So maybe let's go back to that passion and find out a little bit more about when did this passion start? I mean, can you also identify a moment where you realize, you know, that this is what you wanted to study? This is what you wanted to work on? This is what you needed to do?

Mfon Udechukwu  16:32

Well, to be honest.

Véronique Lerch  16:35

Yeah, I mean, that would be better.

Mfon Udechukwu  16:36

The first time I realized I wanted to study human rights was when I received my admission. To that my first exposure to human rights was while I was studying in Nairobi, Kenya, I got to learn about refugee rights. I didn't really think much about this course at the time, but I had the exposure of human rights, humanitarian law, and the likes. But when I wanted to explore my postgraduate studies, I was actually more inclined to go for development and Conflict Studies. Again, because of the events surrounding the time of my graduation, you had the Arab Spring, the war in Libya, Iraq, Iraq, and then some parts of my country, Nigeria, and Northern Nigeria, had lots of issues with terrorism. So I was more actually in line with going for development and Conflict Studies. I did apply to universities and got, I actually got admitted. And then the day I received my admission for human rights, I looked at the course outline, the structure, the learning and the opportunities, and I decided to go for human rights. Upon arriving in Venice and learning with lots of people from different backgrounds, we had lawyers, we had already established human rights professionals being exposed to the human rights principles and theories. I said to myself, Wow, I did not realize how much rights as an individual I had. And I wish that more people had the basic knowledge of human rights. I am fortunate to go this far in the field, but I just wish that as a basis, many people had this knowledge, possibly, it would reduce the stress of advocacy and also strengthen the rule of law. So I think I came into the realization of being in the field, just as I was studying the course, it's not something I am not going to sit here and say it's always been my passion and everything. I think, coming from a country where human rights violation is on the high side, it's not even something we think about it's to analyze that you just assume that this is just how life is going to be supposed to be. But when I got to read about the UDHR, especially principles listed there, and the other social rights, I I realized that there's just so much that we we do not know about I wish people had this exposure at an early stage in their lives.

Véronique Lerch  19:35

I think, you know, a lot of people I've talked to say the same as what you're saying, you know, that they grew up not having either words for human rights or not being interested. But I guess you know, I think there's always something about, you know, the sense of looking for justice, dignity, you know, that lead us and and lead our lives even before we have words for Human rights. So I'm sure you know that you that you were led by this principle even before you, you really put words into it and studied it.

Mfon Udechukwu  20:09

Yes, absolutely. Possibly, I would say from gender approach. That's that I would say that's how I subconsciously got introduced to human rights beyond refugee studies. As an undergraduate. I think I was more on the women's rights advocacy side. But I didn't really have the general word like you have just said that this could all fall under the umbrella of human rights. Yes.

Véronique Lerch  20:40

Yeah. And sometimes maybe it's not necessary for us to have the words as long as we as we can lead our lives following those ideas. Yes, is what we need. So you graduated, like, like 10 years ago? Do you feel your understanding of human rights changed a lot since you graduated? Yeah. Or do you feel like it's a constant? What changed since you since you graduated?

Mfon Udechukwu  21:10

Since graduating I, I had the basic knowledge of human rights from the university from global campus of human rights. But since graduating, I came to realize the broad application of human rights. It's not limited to politics, or it's just really broad. I think that's also how I came into human rights and technology, human rights can be applied in different fields. So I think that was the most significant change. Since graduating, the mind, the mindset shift from the traditional application to the newer ways, or the evolving nature of human rights, it just cuts across different fields. So my worry at the time a few years ago, was to imagine technology could possibly erode fundamental human rights. But now that I have been working in the field for a while, I actually now realize that human rights principles can coexist with different things.

Véronique Lerch  22:26

Yeah, I guess you working with more with robotic, but when it comes to artificial intelligence, don't you think that this may be more of a risk, and that we need human rights to help monitoring the use of AI?

Mfon Udechukwu  22:44

That's why I said they can coexist, coexist with good regulations and principles. And like I mentioned earlier, it's an ever-evolving field. So I think, at the moment policies are still at a very early stages, like countries are developing policies and regulations to support the responsible use of AI. Maybe this is where we have a problem, but as people gain more understanding more knowledge and find a balance with it, I think AI can in fact, support human rights.

Véronique Lerch  23:28

Okay. And if you were going to advise, you know, give advice to somebody who would like to do something similar to you and combine those two passions of emerging technology and, and human rights, you know, what would be your, your pieces of advice for that graduate or that person?

Mfon Udechukwu  23:54

Yeah, you know, how do you say Follow your heart? I'd say follow your thoughts. this inner voice that keeps telling you there's, there's more to it than what you have already been exposed to follow it? Because that's what I did. It was just a conscious, subconscious thoughts that just kept going on. And when I saw the opportunity, I had that eureka moment to say, this is the question you've been asking yourself, and here's the opportunity for you. Maybe if I ignored those thoughts, I would have not seen the opportunity. So listen to your thoughts. Follow your follow your mind. And you know, with Google, the dumbest question your type on Google will actually give you results. So read. Yeah, make use of the resources you have. Follow that. These are some of the things I did. I also tried to follow thought leaders in the field to read but there was really not much to read at the time.  

Véronique Lerch  25:07

I think follow yourself. That's definitely a good suggestion. But I think as, as you just said, it's not only about your thoughts, because you, you realize that there was something there going on. And he was not only irrational is also that you had the intuition to feel like that this is where you needed to focus on. And maybe there was not such an easy choice to refocus on something different. I don't know what you were working on until that point where you were you wish that you shifted to emerging technology. Was that an easy choice for you? Was it so evident?

Mfon Udechukwu  25:44

No, I was actually stuck for a bit in my career. I don't know if I should say this, but I'll say it regardless. Okay. Well, after I returned back to Nigeria, with lots of energy and motivation to get into the human rights field, I realized that the opportunities were limited. And even more so when I moved to a city that is dominated by oil and gas. So again, the opportunities even narrowed further. So it was a difficult one, I had actually took a couple of years of work to focus on my family. So I had two kids in between returning from Europe to Nigeria. And then I got into nonprofit, but focused on children, helping children learn and helping children in out of reach communities to get access to education. So this is what I was doing while thinking about my new career path. And I really liked human rights and technology. But I just kept saying, you know, you're from a country where opportunities are limited. Just decide, like, be honest with yourself, you might never get the opportunity to explore your passion in this field. It's an amazing idea. It's an amazing, it's a beautiful field to get into. But limitations, there were limitations. I kind of felt like maybe it's just one of those things that when I become a billionaire, I would do the research not thinking about a full-time job or anything. But yeah, fate just fate led me to the first nonprofit organization I worked with based in Austria remotely.  

Véronique Lerch  27:47

Sorry to interrupt, but is that really fate? I mean, it's more like you being persistent, no?

Mfon Udechukwu  27:52

Well it is mixture of persistence. And yeah, actually, yeah.

Véronique Lerch  27:59

I guess you saw that opportunity, because you follow those people. And you keep you know, and I think this is maybe the piece of advice is keep, you know, keep the interest, even if you don't know what to do with it at that point. You know, yes, you're building for something that is going to happen. You're building your knowledge, you're building your network, and eventually, as it happened for you, it is going to work out.

Mfon Udechukwu  28:22

Yeah, yeah.

Véronique Lerch  28:24

Yes, Sorry, I interrupted your flow. But you were so you, it led you to this NGO in Austria.

Mfon Udechukwu  28:34

I was just going to add that even though I believe in Nigeria, I have actually mostly worked remotely in this field. So yeah, maybe not, maybe definitely there is an opportunity for, for local actors to also bring awareness to human rights and technology locally as well. But again, this is also part of what the flying labs try to achieve in their work to bring awareness to defy the drones and emerging technologies can be used for social good purposes. And foremost times before they get started with their work, they actually carry out community engagement. And during the engagement projects, they get to talk to the communities, the locals, they get to interact with them and give them like a bit of training on what this is going to be used for and how it's going to impact their lives. So yes, there's a huge gap in also accelerating awareness of the use of emerging technologies locally.

Véronique Lerch  29:44

And, yeah, is that is there anything that you wish to I mean, you're talking about? Yeah, your work with a lot of passion? Is there one thing in particular you really want to see change in the near future? or like, you know, is there something that you foresee that if this if for you, if this one thing would change, you know, that can be a game changer.

Mfon Udechukwu  30:12

I would say the regulations, the regulations sometimes also limits the use of emerging technologies, you know. So I would like to see better regulations that support this work. And also, just like, we always say, it's not really about the technology, but who gets to use it. So access to learning resources to help more people get into the field. Now, people get into the field and realize how this can be used for social good purposes, the closer we are to actually Achieving the Sustainable Development Goals, especially in the global south.

Véronique Lerch  30:59

So basically democratize the use of the emerging technology.

Mfon Udechukwu  31:03

Yes.

Véronique Lerch  31:07

And yeah, I was wondering as well, you know, as you said, you know, like, your past hasn't been Linear. And it's been, it's been tough in in some ways. Also, when you came back? Is there something in particular that keeps you that kept you motivated? You know, can be anything? What kept you motivated?

Mfon Udechukwu  31:39

The passion? sounds, it sounds very, like cliche, but it was a passion. I did not want to give up, I would actually often say to myself, why bother? You know, more graduates are coming into the workforce. They are younger than you, they have more ideas to share. And, yeah, let's be honest here, it's going to be difficult getting into the field after being away for so long. But then I will say to myself, I still have something to offer, I still have something to share. So that was just all that kept me going. And also I try to stay updated with the latest things are information in my field, which is what led me to take a couple of courses at the time. And again, up till now. I am still learning and still developing my professional knowledge in humanitarian use of emerging technology.

Véronique Lerch  32:45

Yeah, keep learning as it is definitely a message that we hear a lot. I mean, I think we all learning all the time. And as in this is what abscess to keep moving. So is there anything in particular that helps you in in tough times?

Mfon Udechukwu  33:04

A difficult question.

Véronique Lerch  33:07

You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

Mfon Udechukwu  33:10

I don't know, movies, music

Véronique Lerch  33:13

is there one in particular, but I support that you go back to a book or music that you go back to in particular that maybe you want to share with us.

Mfon Udechukwu  33:23

To be honest, no one in particular, there were just different things at different times, depending on my mood. So I could go from reading to listening to music and a song I liked or just going out, interacting with people. But most importantly, at the time, where I whenever I got the chance to volunteer. Those were my happiest moments that just kept me going seeing the impact. Being able to help people in the field, especially while volunteering or working with children. Part of my work those were some of the things that kept me going.

Véronique Lerch  34:06

Yeah, yeah. And is there anything that you wish you had known when when you when you graduated from human rights, you know, that would have helped you to realize, you know, actually, that maybe that was going to be difficult or something you wish you had known?  

Mfon Udechukwu  34:25

I wish I'd known about this field earlier. Possibly. It would have made my career path Much fast, I think.

Véronique Lerch  34:34

to know you mean to know about emerging technology, what you were studying, is that what you mean

Mfon Udechukwu  34:37

at the time? Yeah, I came to this realization. Yeah, I would have focused my research into this and yeah, but generally, I think I would still credit the university for the exposure and the foundation they gave me Yeah, I can't really say I wish I'd known something 10 years ago. I did. Yeah, it would have held him. But yeah, I'm thankful for the foundation I got from the program.

Véronique Lerch  35:18

know for sure. Yeah, I don't know, is there any any final or final ideas or concluding words or more advice you want to give?

Mfon Udechukwu  35:29

Follow your thoughts.

Véronique Lerch  35:33

But that's the main that the main idea is really to see if something is bugging you, you know, that's probably where your energy should concentrate?

Mfon Udechukwu  35:40

yes. Yeah, fully. Find ways around it. If one part doesn't work, try another. Yeah, just keep reinventing until you find the right one.

Véronique Lerch  35:58

That's great. Yeah, I think is, you know, no, no career is linear. These were like, yeah, great pieces of advice. And, and I hope a lot of people are going to follow you. And yeah, keep doing this amazing work of shifting the power, the power to the local. I think that's a very important piece of work. And we need to do that in much, many more areas than just emerging technologies. Shifting the power. So yes, though, thank you so much for this conversation. And, yeah,

Mfon Udechukwu  36:45

let's do that. Thank you so much for having me and keep up the work. It's actually a very good niche to also explore other career fields in human rights. You know, it's not everyone, not everyone is not going to be fortunate to get the, the ones we were exposed to, but also shining light on the Less Traveled fields, also really helps young professionals to navigate their career path. I actually wish I had this podcast many years.

Véronique Lerch  37:27

Thank you. Yeah. Well, we this is where we hope that you know, people are listening to it, and feeling you know, but everything is possible and many, many other careers are possible with human rights. Thank you.