Housing is a human right!

Housing is a human right!

Jingle Laura María Calderón Cuevas
Interviewer Véronique Lerch
Editing Brua | bruapodcasts.com

Maite Arrondo 00:03

Two roads diverged in a wood and I, I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the  difference.

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Véronique Lerch 00:15

Welcome to a new episode of our podcast the road less traveled. This is a project of the Center of  human rights from the University of Padova and Global Campus of human rights. With this project and  this podcast we aim at exploring the less usual careers and career paths that are possible after a  degree in human rights. Our guest today is a perfect example of the beauty and depth of nonlinear  paths. A path that includes among others working as a civil seven working for the UN, and working as a  freelancer, she got the revelation that she has a less usual pass by being invited to this podcast. Maite  is an expert on the right to adequate housing and has been working for the past eight years as a  consultant on innovation in housing policies. She is currently working for the housing and renovation  Institute or Barcelona municipality where she supports the international social and affordable housing  agenda. So international networks and organization of events such as the European housing research  conference, or the international social housing festival, she is also the coordinator of the network of  cities for collaborative housing NETCO on behalf of the Barcelona Council, and she is also working part  time for a Spanish NGO aiming at ending homelessness. In that position, as international officer, she's  engaged with the UN homelessness Working Group and the European Housing First Hub, among other  things, so welcome Maite.

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Maite Arrondo 01:47

Thank you very much for the invitation.

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Véronique Lerch 01:50

Thank you for coming. And I think by reading your bio, and it's only an extract of your bio, I think we can  see that you're engaged in many different networks and working with many different partners, which is  often the case when we work as freelancers. So before we jump in other topics, I think it would be  interesting to talk about this about the fact that we have to juggle so many responsibilities and so many  jobs. And as you wrote in your bio online, you also have a little girl. So work life balance is sometimes a  challenge. So I don't know if you have anything to say on this and what we could improve in terms also  about supporting each other.

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Maite Arrondo 02:30

Definitely, I'm busy.

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Véronique Lerch 02:33

You do sound busy.  

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Maite Arrondo 02:35

But sometimes it's fascinating and really exciting. I mean, I think when you are working as a freelance,  especially, it says having a network of contacts and like minded people and working with similar things,  and tax or interest in you is something you have to take care and with a lot of love, and time and  devote, I think it's something you should take care. And you have to take it as a investment and also as  a way of joy of sharing things. And that's been of great help.

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Véronique Lerch 03:08

So having a support network?

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Maite Arrondo 03:10

Yeah, I mean, among other professionals, and also talking about networks to have in support, then  we're for family work life balance is also a must your consultant. And working as a freelance, actually, I  have a three-year-old and I wouldn't be able to do this without the support of my partner, definitely. And  colleagues, family and so on. So it's a must.

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Véronique Lerch 03:34

I think you're very passionate about housing. And I think when we get passionate, we really want to  advocate for an issue, I think we also sometimes take too much. No, isn't that what happens?  

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Maite Arrondo 03:49

Yes. I don't know if I'm obsessed. But by this a healthy obsession, I should say,

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Véronique Lerch 03:58

No, it's it's a good obsession. And I think housing is such a burning issue that it is essential work that  you're doing at the moment. But maybe before we go into housing, maybe you could tell us a little bit  the way human rights got into your life where human rights are so important for you. And what made  you start this path of this human rights journey?

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Maite Arrondo 04:18

Well, I think I studied political science. And it was attracted mostly by the International European things  and ambience and contexts and so on. I come up to human rights mostly as an answer that time to the  problematics or the context we had in where I live with at that time, the terrorist group that was very  active in the Basque country and for me, human rights was a way to understand the process and have  reliable source of critique and information on how to interpret the situation. And that was my first  approach but later on my interest in human rights were mostly driven by the field of economic, social and cultural rights. I joined Amnesty International, when I was in Erasmus in Denmark, mostly to make  friends. Okay, I have to say.

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Véronique Lerch 05:15

Some, some people do that through sports. With Amnesty, why not?

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Maite Arrondo 05:21

It was a good way to get to know people and things in common and interest and so on. And when they  went back to Madrid, then I joined the Amnesty International, their office, and it was appointed very  quickly as a delegate of the Spanish section. And I attended the International assembly of Amnesty  International, where they approved the new area of work for the organization on Economic, Social and  Cultural Rights. I was there then. And I was it was brand new, another field that required another kind of  expertise, and which, in some way, fitted better with my background as political scientist. And I thought  that it was something that was really interesting. And took my interest, so to say.

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Véronique Lerch 06:12

You did your human rights master after that experience?

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Maite Arrondo 06:16

Yeah. I mean, after this career, I thought about doing the massive back then actually, but I was not  good timing, families, and so on. So I started to work right away as a consultant on a new project. And  then afterwards, I studied, and I was working as a civil servant. And both experienced have been really  interesting for me in the sense that helped me a lot to do my current job, actually, and to understand the  public administration, and how you project work, and so on. But where I had fun was one, being an  activist and volunteering in my free time in Amnesty international, actually. So I took a year off after  saving money to be able to study the master, and paid for myself and I did the master after that work  experience. And then, at the time of writing my master thesis, I had not very clear idea on where to  focus. So I just opened the newspaper. And it was very clear that housing was bubbling in Spain, Social  Movements, organizations, the situations, I was living, on rental, and so on, and with the hard  perspective to afford a house, and so on. So it came up like quite naturally, like, okay, it's housing,  housing is a topic. And I became more interested in how to link housing rights and housing. So back  then it was not a very common approach. And I wrote my thesis on the right to adequate housing, and it  was between international and state strategies. And I tried to understand the movement that pushed  and how they did it, their right to adequate housing in different contexts. And yeah, it was really interesting.

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Véronique Lerch 08:11

Okay, so interesting. So you chose your topic for your master thesis by reading the newspaper. And  you saw it as an emerging issue, which I think was really the case, it was what more than 10 years ago?  

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Maite Arrondo 08:23

Yes it was in 2011. And back then, I mean, it was in the news every day. How, and if you see the topic,  and I was pretty clear that that that it was an issue, it was a, something that didn't serve really close  attention, and things were, were being done. And so and I thought it was really nice to link it to  something that was actually moving around in my context and in my surrounding.

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Véronique Lerch 08:51

And so you did the Master, do you feel that it made a difference for your activism? We had this  discussion before? I mean, we both agreed that of course, you know, you don't need to have a human  rights degree to be an activist. But in your case, you know, because you decided to do the master, did  you feel that it is something that made a difference? And if it did, in which way did it make a difference?

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Maite Arrondo 09:11

For me, studying the Masters was really, really empowering. Actually, because I was working at local  level in Spain. And in my hometown, it was very hard to learn, or I felt it was really far link in the local  dimension with international standards and frameworks and organization in the human rights discourse.  I thought that that was very far away. And at the time of studying the Master, it gave me very much this  international dimension and approach and the feeling that it was much easier, that it was connected. So  since then, I've been working in the connection, so to say, of the international human rights based  approach towards the right to adequate housing on the local level, and that has been my area  expertise, so to say since then.

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Véronique Lerch 10:03

That is definitely an area that hasn't been studied so much, and where there's still so much work to be done.  

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Maite Arrondo 10:08

I started because of my personal situation, maybe it's not only the road less traveled, but also  physically was very much exceptional. But when I finished the Master, I moved with my current  husband to Shangai in China, because he was offered the position there in a company. And I started  obviously, working in China without knowing Chinese and human rights is not. I started to collaborate  with international organizations with UN Habitat, and also afterwards with the Special Rapporteur on  the Right to adequate housing as a way to at least have gained some experience and expertise on  housing. And after two years and a half, almost three years, when we went back to Spain, just started  to knock the doors of everyone that was doing things that I found interesting in housing to say, Hey, I'm  here, I have collaborated with the least and that, and I would like to work. And I was like, because back  them, one of the contacts I had was just shortly appointed housing manager of the municipality of  Barcelona, and he told me, okay, I need support with the international agenda, and so on. And I thought  that was fascinating opportunity to jump in.

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Véronique Lerch 11:27

Interesting. So you've been very proactive. When you came back from China, you were very proactive  in trying to find a job and of course, having your international experience that was very useful to Barcelona. Somehow

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Maite Arrondo 11:41

Somehow I was a connection in a way.  

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Véronique Lerch 11:44

think it shows the way you can positively use your network and the fact that you really have to be  proactive. And I think you're looking at the people, I think we've had that before as well. You know, the people you admire and the projects that you like, going proactively to them and saying, Look, I really  like what you're doing and can we work together? And you never know what might happen?

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Maite Arrondo 12:03

Yeah, I mean, proactivity is sometimes just the the only choice. Yeah, when Yeah, because you cannot  expect to have a job offer without a profile back then.  

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Véronique Lerch 12:18

That's true. But you could have decided, you know, to go another way, and just look at job ads, and  maybe apply for something that you were less interested in. So it's still a choice you made. Do you feel  like, there is something that you wish you had learned when you did the master that could have been  useful in your career? Or you wish that somebody told you when you started.

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Maite Arrondo 12:38

the masters, the human rights masters, You mean?

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Véronique Lerch 12:41

some things that would have been useful for your career and or for your activism?

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Maite Arrondo 12:45

Yeah, I think how to approach and find work opportunities would be something that how to start to find  opportunities with international context would be a great help. Actually, I was very much sometimes  with a feeling of working like a blank. Yeah, I mean, I was pretty lost at the beginning. I didn't know  where to start from. I think I would have needed a bit more support of how to start with first steps and  contact and so on.

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Véronique Lerch 13:14

And did your understanding of human rights change after all those years of looking at housing at a  more local level? Did your understanding of human rights change?

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Maite Arrondo 13:25

I think my perspective in that sense has changed quite a lot. Actually because when you studied human  rights and international framework, and so on, somehow a traditional critique action towards human  rights is that they are taken as a given, but when you work the local level, you really realize that they  come from more than half and they are posed by movements I see within society organizations and that  they are conquered. So to say, and this is very, very important, especially for economic and social  rights. The social movements, organizations, activism, and social movements are the drivers that are  pushing forward. For instance, we have recently in Spain it has been passed the first Housing Law at  the state level in the history of our democracy, and these cannot be understood without the role of the  social movements behind as an activist. And is this housing law like big progress? Yes, it is.  

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Véronique Lerch 13:58

Like, what does it include? Just one element of the law that you think is, is really progress.

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Maite Arrondo 14:29

Well, as any wide agreement and in such a controversial and with so many economic interest, nobody  is happy with these, most other people think it's not enough while the other says that they are very  interventionist and so on. So it's a first step because we understand and housing should we understand  and one of the pillars of the welfare state. In the Spanish case the has been absolutely abandoned and  left to the will of the free market. So these, for instance, set limitations in the private market that didn't  have any reference or they are brand new areas of regulation. For instance, for example, the rent  control - rent regulations, that are the rental caps in the private market, which are very common in many  countries across Europe. They exist in Germany, they exist in Austria, in Vienna, in the Netherlands, in  France, and everything. But in Spain talking about this was blowing the minds of many people. And for  example this was included in this law. This is just a piece of the example. But it was revolutionary in the  sense that it opened debates and ways to address the right of adequate housing that had not been  done before in Spain at all.

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Véronique Lerch 15:55

We are having similar conversations in Portugal. And I think the situation is very similar, and the  conversations are similar. And unfortunately, it's incredible that you still have to explain so much the  importance of housing as a consequence, and as a basis for all the other rights, it seems so essential,  and also about the way we live together. It has an influence in the way we build cities and the image we  have of cities, no?

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Maite Arrondo 16:18

definitely, I think housing has mostly been seen as an economic asset as an investment. So to actually  say housing is a human right. You can hardly heard that about any other rights. They don't need to  state the say that health is a human right, you know, that health is a right now, for housing activists, we  have to repeat ourselves so many times. And publicly housing is a human right? Because the way to  think about housing very, very rarely included any kind of social impact or a human rights based  approach. That's a big problem. And now the middle class in Europe and in the Western countries are,  are struggling to access and maintain housing. It's the topic is just baffling.  

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Véronique Lerch 17:06

Well sadly I guess, because it's only when it became a topic for the middle class that it finally became  such a dominant topic, which is really sad, that we didn't take it into consideration before. There is a  quote from David Harvey that I really like in Rebel cities where he says, the question of what kind of city  we want cannot be divorced from the question of what kind of people we want to be and what kind of  social relations we seek what relation to nature, we cherish. And I've seen some similar quotes from  Jane Jacobs. So you told me about, and I think it is really very much about this link between housing  and the city, you know, and which kind of city we want.  

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Maite Arrondo 17:47

Denitely because housing is much more than having a roof over your head, the housing systems, they  are related with a social mix, with implications with inequalities, with how you live life, with community,  how you share your life with and who you live with. And this is critical. This is critical in the sense that it  sets the future of cities in if they are thinking they've been designed for the capital for the economic forces or they are thinking and being designed for the well being or the common interests. And in a  way, if you don't include housing into this dilemma into these debates, you're just going to miss it. It's  pretty hard still to include in the debates and in their housing policies, discussions. And where the rights  based approach is still very small, none almost irrelevant. And besides, I mean, there are not only the  problem of housing and how we design cities is because we have phenomenon like homelessness,  which is rising by 7% annually in the European Union, with the only exception of Finland. So I mean,  this has social costs. And and it's something that I've always heard that people that coming from other  continents from Africa, and some others are more striked by when they see people living in sleeping in  the streets. I mean, it's something they cannot understand. Yeah because we couldn't do it differently. I  mean, as Finland showed, you know, they managed to and listeners in such a short period of time, as  soon as there was a political will, it was possible to do it. So, yeah, it is something that is actually really  difficult to understand, and I think we shouldn't make excuses for it. Do you have a vision for the future?  I mean, is it something like for you, what is your Hopeful future? If you think about your topic, what is  your vision of the future? What is your dream? I think I have been so far since I started to work in this  field, I can be quite positive. I've seen changes in the discourse and now finally becoming real and the  impact and that's doesn't mean necessarily, that the numbers and the figures are going better, but the  strategic measures are being put in place and there proper questions have been raised in the main  forums, I can see now that, for instance, the first resolution on homelessness at UN level was passed  three years ago. Hallelujah. Or, for instance, in the European Union, we are now talking about the new  European Bauhaus and affordable housing initiative, the discussion is bringing up the topic of how  important housing is for the well being and the future and sustainability and economic sustainability to  avoid another economic crisis for the future of Europe. And in state level as well. We have, as I said,  before, we have there has been passed the first housing law in the history of the Spanish democracy.  So I think there are many hits to say that helps me to be quite of moderate positive in terms of I can see  that some changes are going on. However, if we go to the impact and the real life and the numbers in  the data, the challenge is still enormous, and housing policies take so long to be implemented. I mean, you cannot expect a short term impact. So I'll see. We will see.

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Véronique Lerch 21:22

Okay, that was not a completely hopeful vision of the future but with some realism. And just to say,  when you were talking about the EU policies, it's true that I can see the changes as well, because for  instance the child guarantee includes housing as one of the topics. And I think that's such a big change  that even you know, you are including housing in the discussion on child rights at the EU level. That's a  big change. And I'm really glad to see that. So yeah, I can see those positive changes, but is one of the  possible solution because you're working on innovation user coordinator for the network of cities for  collaborative housing, maybe you could tell us a little bit what is collaborative housing, and is that  considered like an innovation?  

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Maite Arrondo 22:08

First I would like to briefly contextualize this network this project and it was I mean, I coordinate this  project on behalf of Barcelona municipality, who currently is lead by a mayor who is well known  because of being a housing activist, so housing became the priority of the city. And they're trying like  several lines of work. It's like sort of Policy Lab for housing policies, I think is incredible and  recommended place for researchers to do comparative things and they will have a lot of fun there. And one of the strands, whereas very small but very promising is the one on collaborative housing, which is  mostly NGO housing cooperatives, but also foundations doing collaborative housing, but in a more  updated version, so to say, because they are doing this collaborative housing and cooperatives exist for  decades. I mean, they are nothing new but in Barcelona, for instance, their model is about providing  affordable housing on a permanent basis. So it's linked with environmental impacts, and it's linked with  the affordability issue, which is the topic of the core of the model. That's what distinguished from  previous experiences in Spain, for instance, and these two very much this new wave of cohousing and  collaborative housing in that are being tested in many cities in Europe. Somehow we were exchanging  and coordinating exchanges among the nations on this. And this network brought along cities like  Amsterdam, Italy, Barcelona, Lyon, it was amazing to see that this phenomenon of finding ways to  provide housing at an affordable and to having a better social impact were attempt at the same time all  over, you could really tell that there was a common thread, and that network was created because of  that. And also, because all the initiatives cohousing initiatives in Barcelona, they were already  exchanging with all these cities on a bilateral basis, very actively. And we understood that cities played  a key role in promoting this model through many mechanisms, land leases, or grants, subsidies or  many other policies ways. So we thought that this network filled that gap on the expertise of the people  working at local level within municipalities or agencies. And so far is one of the areas of work for  Barcelona that I'm more excited about because it's not only a network that is exchanging then and so  on that because at the core, it's talking about doing things differently, providing housing in a different  way and including the communities and the importance of living together and of not been alarmed and  finding support and changing the logic of the markets, avoiding speculation. So it's really a minor of the  line of work, because it's just 4% of the housing units that are being built nowadays by the municipality,  but this is promising in the way that it's much more than just a project, it's a way to think differently, and  more creatively. So I think it's, that's very fun.

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Véronique Lerch 25:33

Well, it is music to my ears. Because it resonates with a lot of the discussion we are having here in  Lisbon, we're trying to see, you know, what is the new way of doing those cooperatives because there  is also a tradition of doing cooperatives in Portugal, but we're looking at you know, exactly this, like a  new way of doing it. And also, we were talking about the lack of expertise, we need more support in  terms of the financial support, the logistics, the legal and regulatory things that we were talking about,  that we need an agency or something. So I think we all looking at what you're doing in Barcelona, that  is maybe you know, our hopeful future is maybe something around Barcelona, as those new  cooperatives and solutions that you find, are they in collective property? Or is it more like individual  property? because the issue of property rights always pops up as well in discussion around housing.  

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Maite Arrondo 26:23

In the Barcelona model, its collective property and the members, they have a share of the cooperative.  But, for instance, one of the most interesting things of this network is that we can see like a wide array  of different models, and each one is somehow responding to a concrete local challenge. And they are  tailored to these because of course, like every municipality has different tools, each tremendous  problem, challenges, resources. So it's fascinating to see how innovation takes place and is been  grounded in so many different and diverse combinations. And, for instance, I'm well aware that in  Barcelona, they also have learned a lot from the models that were designed and implemented in Ottawa or in Denmark. I mean, it's all about sharing and learning and finding the way to ground it and  adapt it to the local challenges.

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Véronique Lerch 27:18

Absolutely. That's the value of those networks, exchange of information and all those lessons learned.  Is there anything in particular that gives you joy in your work except collaborative housing?

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Maite Arrondo 27:32

One of the things I like best of my work is this thing of always feeding my curiosity with peer learning, in  exchange, mutual learnings, and so on, and how it gives a chance to witnessing and learning about  other contexts, solutions and innovation, I think that's something that is really appealing. For instance, I  can recall for almost six or seven years ago of my first time I knew about the model of Community Land  Trust in Puerto Rico, in a favela Caño Martín Peña it was mind blowing, I mean, and now in Barcelona,  they are implementing that kind of model. So it's fascinating. And I've seen how this model has been  transfered into other cities in not only in UK, but also in mainland Europe and so on. So I was  fascinated, I was so so excited. Or, for instance, two weeks ago, I had the chance to attend through this  foundation I'm working with now to the European housing first hub, which is very much the application  to great extent of the human rights approach into homelessnes. And there, we could learn the  explanation and presentation of the Scottish housing plan and housing first implementation plan and so  on. And also was like, really, really fascinating. Having the chance to know and meet in person with  these innovative ways of addressing the challenges we all are sharing is really, really something very exciting.

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Véronique Lerch 29:17

Yeah, I think housing first, I mean, is one of the great solutions to homelessness, and it seems so  evident when you think about it. So maybe can we just explain a little bit to people who might not know  what Housing First is? Could you maybe say just a few words about housing first, the way it works.

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Maite Arrondo 29:32

In a very simplistic way is to provide housing to homeless people without conditionality. I mean, first the  house and then afterwards, adapted to each individual provide the social community support acquired,  and this way is a way to make sure these peoples are going to be treated with a dignified way and  respecting their autonomy. Which is something that was not that common within the other programs  and models where homeless people can only stay, I don't know, for instance, in my city, they can only  stay there for, I think six days in a row. And that's how you expect to integrate and support them. I don't  think that is the case. But I mean, it's complex, there is a transformation of the sector and the solution.  It's challenging. It's the exception in the way homelessness is managed. But at the same time, this goes  to the core of the issue.

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Véronique Lerch 30:33

it seems a logical and take a right approach. I mean, it seems so logical and common sense. You  know, you cannot have your life in order, you can have access to a bank account, you cannot find a job,  if you don't have an address and you know, a place where your dignity is respected. It seems so  logical. Yeah, I'm glad to see this model being more and more used and here as well, in Portugal, it's used more and more. Is there any advice that you want to give to people who want to get involved in  housing? Or people who want to start working as freelancers? Is there any piece of advice you have for  them?  

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Maite Arrondo 31:10

Wish them luck?  

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Véronique Lerch 31:16

Yeah, get your support network, and lots of caffeine,

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Maite Arrondo 31:20

Be patient and persistent, I would say these two things are very important. Also try to have fun, I think  it's important, especially when the data and the numbers that you see are not precisely good, you need  to counterbalance that with a little bit of humor or fun or either no way of move up the spirits. And keep  learning, I think to be updated and do not relax in the way do not stop learning doing courses, attending  congresses or conferences. I mean, keep learning. I think that's a must and building a network of  support network of peers, professional peers, and of course, at a personal level. And also would add,  support other women. Yeah, I think this is specially when you are freelance and you have babies, and  you have to take care of your parents or elderly people dependent persons. And this unfortunately, still  is something mostly done by women. I think it's especially challenging for women. That sense, I would  say it's a must.

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Véronique Lerch 31:24

Is there a way that we can support each other better? How can we support women better? Do you have  do you have an example?

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Maite Arrondo 32:38

I have seen in the housing sector, for example, the Association of housing people working in the real  estate, women associations, for instance. And I thought, in the private sector that exist, and women are  aware that they have like, many challenges, and they have created this association for peer support,  and so on. I think that would be a good idea to transfer into our field of human rights or freelancers or  consultants in human rights. I don't know how to address it.

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Véronique Lerch 33:09

An association of female freelancers supporting each other year or maybe through a project.

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Maite Arrondo 33:14

I don't know how I can stop but maybe just copying the idea would be nice.

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Véronique Lerch 33:21

no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah, we have to think about it. Yeah. It's It's so tough to be a freelancer sometimes.  And especially if you have other responsibilities, it will be interesting to think about that a bit more. In  your tough moments. I mean, is there anything that is helping you to keep your spirits up having fun,  but is there any any other things any music or books.

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Maite Arrondo 33:46

I love life music, concerts, that's always something that chews me up. This is something I share with  many friends and we all love music and going to festivals and live concerts. That's something that we  really missed during the lockdown and the pandemic time actually, and so on. And definitely music is  

basic, but also reading I have little so little time now. With the little baby you're working in and so on is  something I'm starting to do very consciously lately devoting some times to it because it's something I  really enjoy and being with friends.

Véronique Lerch 34:29

That's important definitely. So as we are coming to close do you have any concluding or final words  that you want to share?

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Maite Arrondo 34:37

That housing is a human right. Once more and also be a word and that sense? I've been I've been in  some way lucky in this last year is because I have witnessed how the improvements have been breach  or positive steps. I heard that in a podcast yesterday with Sorcha Edwards, the director of housing  Europe, which is the Association of housing providers of social and affordable housing and compare  this at the EU level, the main lobby of the social and affordable housing sector, and she mentioned that  how easy is to dismantle a housing system, or how hard is to build it up and construct it, and how long it  takes and so on, we really have to value what we have and understand the enormous amount of time  and resources and time required to have the welfare system to have the health system and really  treasure that because that can be easily dismantled very quickly. And it has happened a lot of times.  So, so far, I have not witnessed that in my personal professional experience. But I understand that that  may happen. And it's something that we cannot forget.

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Véronique Lerch 35:54

Thank you for this Maite and keep fighting on the right to housing for all of us. And hopefully more  people will join this fight will be there. And after listening to you. Thank you so much.  

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Maite Arrondo 36:08

Thank you very much for your invitation. It was really nice. Thank you