Stay in an uncomfortable space for something new to emerge!

Stay in an uncomfortable space for something new to emerge!

Jingle Laura María Calderón Cuevas
Interviewer Véronique Lerch
Editing Brua | bruapodcasts.com

Transcript

Vladimira Briestenska  00:05

Two roads diverged in the wood and I, I took the one less travelled by, and that has made all the difference.

Véronique Lerch  00:20

Welcome to a new episode of the podcast the road less travelled. This is a podcast initiated by the Centre of Human Rights from the University of Padova and Global Campus of Human Rights and hosted by me, Véronique Lerch. With this podcast, we are exploring the less usual careers after a degree in human rights. We started this podcast because we believe that there are no clearly defined entry points or routes to work with human rights guest today, wears many hats and has multiple identities, and has found her own way, or I would say her own unique way to work with human rights. Vladimira is a co founder of the NEEM, a financial wellness business out of Pakistan, enabling underserved communities across emerging markets. She is actively involved as an angel investor and advisory board member for various impactful businesses. She's been recognised for outstanding contribution and was honoured by Forbes as one of the top entrepreneurs in her field. She also co founded a Global initiative The Future Farm promoting mental health support for entrepreneurs. And of course, as well she hosts a Naked podcast destigmatizing, the topic of mental health for entrepreneurs. Welcome to this podcast Vladimira!

Vladimira Briestenska  01:41

Thank you for having me Véronique, really excited to.

Véronique Lerch  01:44

So we're very happy to have you. I think the the intro is not probably doing justice to everything you're doing. But I hope we can talk about some of the other aspects of your work during the podcast. And maybe to kick off this conversation. I would really be interested. We can go more into the details later. But I would be interested to get your take on the link that you see between entrepreneurship and human rights because you seem to really link the two. And you're recognised entrepreneur and an advocate for equality and justice. So maybe just to start with that. And then we can go into details and illustrate with you with your path.

Vladimira Briestenska  02:29

Definitely no, thank you. Thanks again for having me. And you made me feel nostalgic, just by listening to the European Centre for Human Rights, just going back in my mind into my master's programme time, which was few years ago. So thanks for that. There was a nice moment. So link between human rights and entrepreneurship. I think even though for many people, this might still be a question that they might struggle with an answer for, I think for me, I'm not sure if there is any other way to be honest. So that's how I look at it that the entrepreneurship is really more as a force for good. It's a platform that is committed to creating positive impact in the society. And if you think about what is the positive impact in society, whether that's towards environment or impact on individuals and people's lives, I think ultimately where you arrive is human rights and some of the very basic rights and freedoms for individuals. And then you can speak about communities and sort of nations at large. So I think that that's how I look at it today. And that's what sort of is at the, I think, the core of the thesis for us, even in what we are doing today, with Neem, which you mentioned introduced, which is a financial wellness business here at the heart of Pakistan, which is a very exciting and adventurous and beautiful market. So I think that's really what it is, for me, it's, it's, it's a must, it's to connect the business with the human rights and with the positive cause that you commit yourself to and really use it as a force for good. And creating are creating a little bit of impact on people's lives.

Véronique Lerch  04:35

So yeah, I mean, I understand from what you're saying, so you really see entrepreneurship as a force for change. And you talk a lot about the impact that you can reach by the investment that you're doing. And I do wonder though you know, because I that makes sense to me, but in a way, if I look at what you studied, you know, it seems a little bit unexpected. You studied journalism, and you did this master's in human rights. And I know that you were considering working in diplomacy. And I wonder, you know, when did this segway to business appear? And also, maybe linked to that, you know, because I think your human rights interest started much earlier than then the business but the way those two joined together. So if you can maybe tell a little bit about that, because it's, I think that's the prime that is quite unique. I mean, what you're saying makes sense. But from somebody who had, you know, like a past not linked to business, it's a little, it's a little bit more unexpected. I would say.

Vladimira Briestenska  05:35

There, it was unexpected for me also. So I think just for a little bit of context. So in terms of my background, so I grew up in a family with one sibling, and my sibling, as well as my parents are all engineers. So that was a path that sort of was somehow pre designed or expected from me as well. So even when I decided to go towards journalism and foreign policy, such as diplomacy, for my Bachelor studies, it was a little bit of outside of, I think we was considered as a valuable field where you can create some impact, and also, I guess, take care of yourself as an individual. So I think that was the first moment, which was like an interesting reflection for me that, okay, there are certain lenses that people apply when they think about the choices in life. And even though I love my family very much, I'm very proud that I was able to escape at that point of the expectation, and I think, really stood up for myself and what felt right to me at that point, even though, I guess I knew very little about life, because it was in the early days, right? When we choose the university, if we go for university studies, what do we know about life, but I did follow the path. So I went into foreign policy already, during my Bachelor studies, that something else I am very grateful for that I could quite early on, get a taste and grasp of what it actually means to do this, in practical way. So I spent few years in Brussels as a trainee and be part of the European institutions. So very interesting, very vibrant, in early days, I got exposure to quite high level politics at the European level, which was in some way, also intimidating. I think in a moment of self reflection, asking myself, what can I add here because I had very little of knowledge of the real sort of things happening for people and communities on the ground. And if you have that disconnect, and then you find yourself at the Pan European level where you are contributing, even though as a support force, but you're contributing to creating policies. That's where I felt the disconnect. I think at the core of who I was, was someone with curiosity, asking the questions which were linking to human rights. So at some point on the journey, where I felt that this disconnect was really emerging for me, and it was some unsettling feeling inside of, even though I could have sort of created this very glamorous career in Brussels, then was really available. I felt that I needed to ground myself again. And that's where in my life, the Master programme of human rights came in. It was I think, serendipity, whereas I think I was ready also for it. So when I applied and was sort of admitted, it sort of landed really well, I felt that that was what I needed in my life at that point to connect the dots really, and also into what I considered at that moment, some grounding knowledge of what is really, what are some of the core struggles for people in different parts of the world and different communities? How, what are even the bigger questions to ask, what is the lens to apply? So that's what led me to human rights. I think it was the curiosity and in some way, the feeling of distress or disconnect inside of myself saying, Well, yeah, I can have this glamour here, and the big Brussels life, but is the truly authentically connected to what I can where I can contribute, but also to what do I know and what's happening on the ground? So I can maybe pause here and then entrepreneurship, because that came much later. At that point, I was not even thinking about entrepreneurship,

Véronique Lerch  09:45

when you studied human rights, do you do you feel that trade confirms of values that you were feeling and it's helped you to connect the dots as you say, from what I understand from the rest of your career, I mean, you keep human rights as a lens, we're talking about lens and perspective. as a lens to the work you're doing. But do you feel that your understanding of human rights has changed since you graduated? Because you basically change perspective, again, from a geographical point of view, but also from an area work point of view. So I think it's really interesting to see the way you look at human rights today. And maybe the background knowledge you received at the time, and maybe what was missing or what was helpful, from what you learned.

Vladimira Briestenska  10:30

I think there were multiple layers of that sort of upgrade, or the impact on the lens that I applied after I graduated with respects to human rights. I think I was walking into it with some sense of theoretical knowledge, and some context, which was related to my upbringing, and maybe the sort of the environment where I was experiencing, let's say, some level of discrimination, which was related to gender, which was more prevalent in, in the days in the environment where I grew up, which was Central Eastern Europe. So I think that was my starting point. I think after I graduated, there was certainly one strong element, which was around how can you even apply the lens of human rights into really whatever you do in your professional life, I think that really expanded. And I, whenever I look back on the time within EMA, that's I consider that as one of the biggest gifts that I took away from from this year, which was in practical live, what I mean by that is that whether you are a lawyer, or you are an entrepreneur, or you are a human rights advocate, or you are in politics, and you name it, the professions are all of all diversity and kind, there is an aspect and then lens that we can talking about that you can apply. And I think when I was walking into the Masters, I had a quite a limited perspective. What are the possible professions, if I see us very simple language of how you can keep contributing to the value of human rights and to the freedoms and I think for a lot of us, I feel like it was really more in the backdrop of, well, you have to be the human rights advocates, or you have to be a researcher in human rights field. And maybe then you considered sort of the UN's of this world and the bigger sort of international organisations. I don't think and I do believe that that's one of the gaps. And I did provide that feedback to the Institute, is that at that point, when I was graduating, I don't think any of us really or majority of us has not even considered the option of building an initiative on your own being an entrepreneur, where you can actually start addressing some of those systemic challenges and contributing to equalising human rights for all or whatever perspective would have with it. So I think that was a, there was a little bit of a disconnect there that even though it didn't go to, my perspective on how you can start addressing the bit around entrepreneurship that you keep asking me about came not so much as an outcome of the Masters, it came much more, I think, just through the path of my life and the serendipity of circumstances and the ability of having an open mind. But that's my reflection today that it's actually the spectrum of what we can do is really wide.

Véronique Lerch  13:46

I completely agree. I mean, this is one of the reasons we started this podcast, because we really want to show, you know, the way you can apply human rights in many different ways. And I think for a very long time, we'll as exactly as you said, we're limited to a certain number of professions, and a certain number of institutions. And I'm glad to hear in a way that you know, your reflection, I think you're doing a lot of self-reflection. Too much. But I mean, they lead you to a good place. So I think it you reflection made you keep the connection to human rights while taking the entrepreneur route. Because very often when I what I hear from people who you know, that I want to interview for the podcast is, oh, I'm not working on human rights anymore. Or, and I'm like, really? I mean, it doesn't seem to me that what you're doing is not linked to human rights. And I think this is exactly what's interesting is bringing human rights in different places and finding new ways to apply human rights. So it's really what makes your past really unique is the fact that you kept that you really went into I mean, that's my impression that you went into entrepreneurship thinking I'm going to actually, you know, having a better impact by going into entrepreneurship. So me Before we can go nine to the way you went into, into FinTech, FinTech and entrepreneurship, maybe you can tell us you know, what happened?  

Vladimira Briestenska  15:12

What happened? Financial services? I think it's a brilliant segway, though, to what you were saying Veronique because so as we mentioned, my sort of educational background was very different. My experience professional experience was not in financial services space, after actually just maybe an input that after my master's, I came back to Central Eastern Europe, I was part of a NGO that was working on political participation of increasing political participation of women. So quite a grassroots movement. And then through serendipity, I got into the tech sector. And I think it was, again, would let me was a lot of intuition as well as curiosity. Because what was really interesting for me at that point was that the way how I saw entrepreneurs, and the people in the tech sector, driving change, and creating change was very exciting and liberating, compared to what I let's say you've seen before in the policy world, or in the world of NGOs, where I felt that there was so much of dependency on the grant funding, and there were many, this is a compensation for another show, I'm sure. But I think I was very aware of the limitations that we were the glass ceiling that we were arriving to in both of the sectors and suddenly I met those founders and those not that I want to glamorise the profession. But that's how I felt at that time was that though they were their relationship to risk was really refreshing. They were taking bold steps, they were co creating sort of the problems as well. So solutions that what they wanted to work on, there was a great deal of freedom. And that was very attractive to me. So I think that's what made me rethink at that point, the shift in my career, it was interesting that at that point, what came on my plate was actually an opportunity to come back to Brussels and be part of the Slovak presidency and actually lead the unit for gender equality, which is a big one. And it was it was a it was a big question and sort of dilemma, I remember those moments. And on the other hand, I had this opportunity to join the startup ecosystem in Slovakia, which was nascent, there was not much happening, but it was I could feel that there is something really exciting in their unknown. And I felt that it will lead me to spaces that I can grow through and you'll find myself and I was also young, frankly, just so the explore the different ways. And I'm very grateful that I did so I in some way I jumped from the rock or jump the ship with how, you know, my eyes were closed, because it felt frightening in some way. Because it was it was being again, at the beginning of the journey in some way. Um, but yeah, so that that's sort of where it started. It was a lot of intuition, a lot of curiosity. And I think you have to also sometimes be bold to make those those sorts of moves in your life. But I know I haven't yet fully answered the question. But

Véronique Lerch  18:39

no, you'd say Yeah, well, I mean, it's, as you say, it's an evolution. And I think what you're saying is already giving us a lot of clues about if I was going to ask you which kind of advice you would give to somebody or young graduates about having a similar path to use, I think you're already giving a lot of clues about this, you know, I think it's a lot about being led by curiosity, and intuition, understanding what is emerging. So paying attention to what is emerging, probably self reflection is a good one to also what from what you said before, I felt like I haven't heard much from people but so much in such a clear ways is being so aware of where you come from, in terms of your upbringing and the way that has an influence on the way you understand human rights and really bringing back human rights and your understanding of also like your past and your carrier past, you know, really questioning the baggage and the way it influences your understanding of human rights and if you don't start from yourself, it makes it really difficult and I think you've done that work, which is amazing. So a lot of courage as well to to take that bold steps and take a chance on something new. So I want to make sure we have time to talk about NEEM. I know we know we haven't done the whole path you know And you know, by the way you went to the way you started this, but maybe you want to tell us a little bit about NEEM and what led you to create this, whatever you feel, you want to tell us more about, just conscious about time. And this is really exciting.

Vladimira Briestenska  20:15

I think there's a element around the financial services in the FinTech and the connection that you did you talk about. And I think it's important on the journey, because the phase I mentioned, when I made the switch towards the technology, it was nothing that I was attracted by financial services whatsoever, what I was attracted by was the platform that can drive the change. And I think I saw the potential to do it at scale, and do it with a quite a big space of freedom and co creation. So these were the elements that attracted me to make the shift only later in that journey as I was part of startup accelerators. And then I've got to work with an investment fund, which was actually in the financial services space. So do your question, what happened there? That was the question I asked myself, like what happened here? Because financial services, so like, seriously, really, that's the space I'm going to end up in. So there was part of it was asking this bigger question, like what led me in here. And I think for a little while, for about six months, it was quite a painful experience, because I didn't have any of this background, technically around FinTech and financial services. So I really had to stretch myself when it comes to their curiosity. And just, I think the ability to stay in an uncomfortable space for a little while. So the new things and insights can emerge. And I think that's a general observation or learning I have from life is that for something new to come, I feel like we have to be able to one create space for it. But also to be able to sort of stick around in a little bit uncomfortable, ambiguous, unknown spaces. So I think that's what happened there. And it actually led to a quite a beautiful space, which you mentioned, which was a, it reminded me a connection back home and to my childhood, so to my roots. So when I started working with purpose, like FinTech companies, and what I mean by that, that those are financial services, technology companies that are addressing a systemic issue around financial inclusion or financial literacy, I started connecting dots. And now we're coming back to human rights. So it started reminding me the times when I saw my mum, at home in during my childhood, when I saw her not really being sort of the in control, I would say, of her financial wellbeing, even though she had her bank account, and there was a shared bank account with my father. And he's not like my dad was some sort of a tyrant. But I think her financial literacy of what potentially could be available to her and how this could have empowered her in further decisions in our life was not existent. And I think I was a silent observer of this. And it only kicked in later in my journey. And I think that was very powerful moment for me, because I really feel Véronique that that's when the scale the entrepreneurship, and the understanding that once an individual is actually empowered financially, this can have a massive impact on other areas of our life that would resonate and felt really good and my sort of guts that, yes, I want to do something in this space, I felt as I was able to be part of a system that is really at the core of what we call empowerment or enablement. And I've seen some use cases, which are people, especially women, there was a specific angle, I think, again, back to my mother, and then to other women in my life later on, where I saw them, being able to really be in control and take care of their own finances. And I seen how that spilled over into the ability to take care of their education, or their kids being able to start their own businesses, being able to leave abusive relationship because they are financially independent, you name it, it was just powerful. And I think that's where I married the tool.

Véronique Lerch  24:42

We start to talk more and more about economic abuse and financial abuse in relationship as well and the dependencies that it creates on financial freedom to freedom and stability are essential to make the decisions in your life. I mean, maybe that's a good moment maybe to explain the way you define financial wellness and the way you define that in a position to financial inclusion?

Vladimira Briestenska  25:07

Sure, I think sometimes this can feel technical for people. But I'll try to give it some value, because that's when we, I think, also understood in the context of a market like Pakistan, even though I truly still believe that it is not just an emerging market issue, this is very much issue. I think of probably both of us. I'm making an assumption here, but I think most of us are underbanked. But let me get to it. So financial inclusion, I think historically, sort of created a lot of good impact. But it has been codified as an ability for an individual to be part of financial services system. And in even simpler language, that means most of the time ability to open a bank account. However, if I come back to when we talked before, which is that complex, positive impact on your life, to make decisions about not just making digital payments, but being able to unlock some credit, or loan for your business, for that matter, insure your health or insure business against fire, which is a big issue here in Pakistan, for the farming community, being able to create some basic savings, so you can save, for your education or for your kids, then yes, potentially invest the money, that a whole layer above beyond the digital payments is not existed for most of the people globally. So we felt that there is need to shift the gears and move beyond just opening up a bank account, which most of the time really means money in, money out. But that is not the sort of holistic wellbeing that we are talking about. So that's how we look at the financial well being, which is really the full spectrum of the needs of an individual or community, access to the right financial services products across the spectrum of the lawns, and insurance and savings and digital payments can create that positive impact for you.

Véronique Lerch  27:13

While I was listening to you, I was wondering, I mean, is it is it easy to find like minded people, people who think like you do in FinTech. And maybe I'm also thinking about this because I was listening to your podcast where you talk about the mental health of Intrapreneurs, where I can't remember the we call that our compassionate now, the Compassionate investors. And, you know, I was wondering, you know, the way you find like-minded people, whether you find that there are enough of them like compassion, I mean, yeah, that was really interesting to listen to that to the compassionate investors and trying to build the capacity of investors in terms of understanding that they need to take what you just talked about this holistic approach to entrepreneur, which is sorry, it's a slightly different topic, but I think it's related.

Vladimira Briestenska  28:05

it is related. And I think the good news is that there's more and more of them. I think, when we started, it was quite a lot of education that we have to do, especially on the side of the investors. But I frankly, I guess, even though I have a heavy heart towards investors, and it's a topic on its own, I don't blame them, because they have their own bosses, if I call it that way, the people who are centralising the pots of money, and then they're distributing it through investors who are looking through certain lens of KPIs. And in the majority, I think it is still looking through the profit angle. So the profit marries the purpose is not always the case. But I think the good news is to come back to where we started is that I'm seeing more and more of those who do understand that there's something called patient capital, which means that the returns are not coming back to you in a year or three, that it takes a little longer to really make a mark and create some substantial impact that build a healthy, scalable business. And to the point of compassionate investor, what we really meant by it is that it's an investor who also is able to, in some way, put themselves into your shoes as a founder. Because the journey of being a builder is quite a tough one. There are many statistics but maybe just to pick up on one out of all intrapreneurs. And there I think at the moment that statistic is about over 500 million people have chosen the profession of being an entrepreneur and around the world. 72% of them have experienced directly or indirectly mental health challenges. So I think It's known as a fact. So we have a number of studies to say that it is not an easy profession that you decide for. And it does require extra support system. And I think for a lot of entrepreneurs, investors are still more of a stressor than a support system. So I think that's the part of the movement, or the goal of the movement is to de stigmatize and also raise awareness and educate investors, how it feels to be on the other side. And what are some of the sort of key stressful components of the journey? And how can investor actually help to address those rather than being part of the problem, like be part of the solution? So that's the idea behind the compassionate investor movement.

Véronique Lerch  30:48

Um, actually, maybe also to say that entrepreneurship is maybe not for everybody, and and to move away from, you know, this discourse, as well of, you know, we're trying to push everybody into entrepreneurship, it might not be for everybody. And I think that's also a reflection to everybody, you know, before starting being an entrepreneur needs to have is whether it is appropriate or not. Maybe you could tell us in a few words about neem. So we won't go so much into details about neem in this conversation, because it's more about you and your and your path, but I think it will be important to explain the way NEEM works that would illustrate a little bit the conversation we had as well about financial wellness and the way you helped those communities.

Vladimira Briestenska  31:30

So it's been about five years that I've been in Pakistan, learning about the country and its people and some of the both the challenges and the beautiful opportunity that this part of the world has to offer. I know it's different, I'll get to the answer. But I think that was something else I wanted to mention is that I do still feel that in most of the parts of the world, we carry such a biased view against certain sort of regions and countries and nations. And that's also one of the sort of bigger outcomes and gifts really, that has been granted to me in my life is to be able to really sort of experience a sense of belonging and be part of this community and see how wrong that is, and how from outside, it's very easy to fall into the trap of the news headlines and the biases that are confirming some of the negative perceptions. So I think all that said, I'm highly sort of encourage people to go beyond the headlines if you can travel into sort of experience and for yourself. And now. Yeah, don't fall into the trap of negative news, because that's what gets out there. But these parts of the world have so much to offer.

Véronique Lerch  32:49

But yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I think it is definitely I think part of the of the perspective change. And we need to get into reflection we need to get I think we have such a year as to introduce Eurocentric view of the world. And it is important to really get this experience in whatever way you can. Like if you can't move to another country, at least read the news coming from another place written by non European media. So yeah, thank you for that.

Vladimira Briestenska  33:18

So when it comes to NEEM and the topic of financial wellness, so just to give a little bit of context. So Pakistan today has about 200, over 232 million people in the country. So it's the fifth most populous country in the world, and about 120 are considered as excluded from the financial services system. So we call them financially underserved. So that's massive. So I think the scale of the need, and the opportunity was very clear to us. So that was one of the sort of key components when we were making decision about building name here in this part of the world. I think the other one was what I mentioned before, which is using technology really to to scale your solution across millions. So that allows you to really drive impact in a very different way. I mean, if you do this in Europe, you mentioned the Eurocentric view. I mean, when a business has 500 customers is already celebrated. When I arrived in Pakistan and I met some of the businesses there were early stage, and they already had like 500,000 customers, but they were not making any headlines. So I think that's a very different context as well. But what we are trying to do is I think we there was one really important insights that we understood, so the whole country is going through digital transformations. What I mean by that is that both businesses and people are consuming a lot of services whether that's ride hailing, mobility food, how they are receiving, advisory from doctors, so there's telehealth advisory about agricultural farming community, it does happen from digital means, in most of the case is a basic mobile phone. So feature phone, and smartphone. So there are businesses that are already serving and are existing in this digital space. Those businesses have built a trust with Pakistani so the people who live in the country. So instead of us as NEEM, building a relationship with every individual, Pakistani, and start providing services to them, which is a really big gap, because generally, the trust towards financial services institution in markets like those is quite low for all good reasons. Frankly, I don't blame them. So what we thought is, why don't we approach it in a different way, we, as a business, the Financial Services regulated business, we can build a relationship with already existing brands and businesses that exist in Pakistan. And through technology, we can enable those businesses to be able to start providing some basic financial services to their customers. So in a way, it's called in, in the FinTech world, they call it embedded finance, I think it's a very powerful model, because you're leveraging the trust, you are impacting the health of the business, as well as the end user. And it's not sort of build on the ego of, oh, I have to build a sexy brand for a consumer.

Véronique Lerch  36:35

I find it quite interesting. I mean, this embedded finance because in a way, what you're describing is going to communities and and going to partners, you know, which I already trusted. And in a way that reminds me of the way maybe NGOs or other you know, nonprofits should also be working. And maybe we should have this embedded finance model, more applied to nonprofits as well.

Vladimira Briestenska  37:00

Yeah, I think it's the idea, like you said, Veronique is the so don't try to meet the person you want to serve in some other allee, your pathway for them, but you actually try to understand what is their lifecycle and their path they already have? Can I meet them on it?

Véronique Lerch  37:20

but meeting the people where there is, and we talk about the a nonprofit terms as well, but we're not doing it. I don't think we're walking the talk. But I think what you're doing sounds more like it. I think there's definitely some learning there I can hear from what what you're doing. What brings you joy in in that work that you're doing?

Vladimira Briestenska  37:41

Many things. And I think this is also the tricky part around entrepreneurs, a researcher told us just recently that you can as an entrepreneur, because you're so committed to the cause, that you are building that serving for the people, you can feel really sort of rewarded. And well, whilst you're also stressed, but you don't know. So that was the tricky part. But I think one that immediately sort of arrived to my mind is the people that I do this with one, it's the co founders that I'm building this with, one of them is also my life partner. So it's very unique, but they are individuals with whom we are aligned at the spiritual and values level. And I think that took us through already through so many hardships, that gives me a lot of joy to do it with people that I really genuinely respect and care about. And then certainly the team. I think just working with this, the talent in Pakistan, just to give you a sense, is very hungry, eager bold talent. So I think it comes back to the fact that they've been overlooked for such a long time by the global community. And I've had the opportunity to compare. I arrived to Pakistan, from the London ecosystem, where I was also supporting early stage founders and not to be negative towards them. But I think the pattern that I observed over there was that people took things for granted. When I arrived to Pakistan, and I started working with the talent over here, they were very eager, curious and grateful just generally for the opportunity to learn and be part of creation and for the fact that you give them a chance for personal development on their side. It's that that is really rewarding. I think just the ability to give back from what the privileges have been granted to me and be part of maybe a little bit of equalising the sort of the opportunity and that global level is very rewarding. So I think that and I'm learning tons from them. So this is certainly not one way. They give me a lot of a lot of learning, but also, I think just generally the joy of being around them and, and creating this venture together. So that's the people in the community, certainly a big one.

Véronique Lerch  40:15

So that's fun joy. And maybe we could talk about hope as well. And is there anything in terms of your hopeful vision of the future, and looking at the kind of impact that you're trying to have with the work you're doing. And is there one thing in particular, I mean, another many things you're trying to impact. But if there's one thing in particular that you really hope, to change? And to see, that's part of your hopeful vision?

Vladimira Briestenska  40:44

I think my answer might be a little bit different, maybe from what's expected.  

Véronique Lerch  40:49

whatever you like to saying.

Vladimira Briestenska  40:54

There's that big vision of history, which and very ambitious vision that we have at NEEM. And, again, it's a privilege for me to be part of it. And I'm driven towards it. And it's the financial enablement of individuals to allow them to take life and make decisions in their life for themselves with that freedom that we talked about. That's a very strong sort of driver. So that's for sure. But I think if I really dig deeper and go to myself that if there's one hope that I have, in my life, I think it's the piece around connected part, they're unconnected, if that makes sense. And what I mean by that is that it's still raises a lot of eyebrows when I meet people, and they look at my journey, and they say, What is this white European woman doing in Pakistan and creating this business? And he leads to, I think, important questions that that people often leave with from the conversation. And I think that's where I see All right, hope that I can impact few individuals in my life, on their own journeys as change agents for breaking, maybe the stereotypes or sort of the boxes that have been sort of created for them by the environment, or by their upbringing, or by themselves, that are limiting them in the way of how they could sort of show up in their lives fully alive and do things that feel maybe unrealistic. I think for a lot of people, it's still feel very odd that I do what I do, and I am who I am. And I think that's where I see my calling. And my role is to show that, no, it's possible. And it's not that this is some heroic journey I'm on. But I think it's about the fact that in somewhere else, so allowed myself to be inspired by others and supported by others, but then to step into that place that feels quite unordinary. And I think in some or many ways, that's great, a lot of stereotypes. So that would be probably my hope, that I leave for a few people, and then they can be change agents for many others.

Véronique Lerch  43:12

I mean, that's definitely a very perfect answer to the question. Rather than, you know, saying, no, because yeah, yeah, no, I think what do you I mean, it sounds, you know, it's really about a journey of liberation of all the labels that we can have, and really being closer to the person you need to be and be closer to the values and maybe. And, you know, what is seems unordinary is actually what should have been? And maybe the ordinary is, is actually not helping and, and not giving us hope. So I think it's definitely a very good, a very good answer. We touched a little bit upon the topic of hardship in terms of being an entrepreneur, and we talked a lot about the courage it takes and what you went through in terms of breaking those barriers and those perspectives and, and, you know, I wonder if there's something in particular that helps you to keep going, you know, like you mentioned, you know, like being in this uncomfortable place for six months, you know, going to into tech, and fintech and is there when you go through our trip? Is it something in particular that had to?

Vladimira Briestenska  44:32

I think there are things that I sort of, I've tried to build in into my support system, for yes, the moment when the hardship appears, but even I think these days in a more preventative way, so to actually be able to navigate that hardship in a little better way when it comes rather than them being fully overwhelmed and increases and then collect yourself for much longer time. I, that I think is the learning of the last few years. But in terms of what fits in that toolkit or is part of the support system, I think I would certainly start with what we already talked about, which is creating quite a lot of space for self awareness, and learning about who I am what sticks with me what stresses me. And then reminding that to myself, like literally having a written somewhere I have, we've done this exercise, even with our team here at Neem, which was around mapping my core stressors, and then the same mapping my energizers. So having that present in my life and knowing that if I spend a lot of time on social media or I overwork, let's say, for two weeks, I really run a intense sprint. And I don't take a break that I know already that though it will have consequences. Some of the other stressors are maybe spaces where I have to focus on work and spending too much time with people at work. And I completely ignore the other lenses and layers of my life, which means friends outside of work, we have nothing to do with boxton Nothing to do with financial wellness. And that is a super strong pillar in my life. As well, I think the identity of we're not just an intrapreneur I mean, we are a daughter, sister and runner, a dancer, and you name it right painter and, and I think reminding myself that there I have those layers as well, it's very helpful. Also, just not to take myself too seriously, when it comes to the business can be a tricky life. If you connect your own identity and self-worth, with the identity of the business, I think that's sort of a very quick right to hell, in a way, you know, exaggerated way. But it's a tricky place. So I think in terms of the support system, I am a very strong proponent of therapy. So it took me a while to find someone who fits me, but for the last three years I've been having are sort of have this relationship with a person I genuinely deeply care about. And she has been helping me a lot and it's really on, not with the lens of let's say addressing a certain intervention, like I don't know, anxiety, or obviously there are different reasons. But it's more as a creating a space for myself to feel through, talk through absorb and have a sounding board and someone who asked me right questions. So that has been a really strong pillar in my support system. So I think if I could just maybe highlight one about all it really would be the self-reflection, because I think that's where it starts from, then my support toolkit might not work for you. So start from the bottom. What are the things that are taking for you? And you know, that helps you rather than, you know, copying someone else model? But yeah, so I think the sell?

Véronique Lerch  47:49

Yeah, yeah, I think what you're saying now is really important. I mean, I think this is, of course, this is your personal toolkit and might not work. But I think it's always useful for other people to know, and as you said, you know, your self-reflection, self-reflection can work for everybody. So we can definitely recommend without any doubts, you know, that this is a good place to start. I think there was a beautiful conversation I could have could have gone, you know, gone on for a while. And I'm really sorry that we have to close very soon. And I can see why your podcast is called naked. You do come, you know, with your entire self and a very holistic approach and a very honest approach to thank you for that. And, and thank you for your very honest answers to my questions, so maybe, you know, to close the conversation, I mean, is there anything concluding words from you any any advice you want to leave, you know, graduates with, you know, in terms of them choosing a path, especially as I studied human rights, and want to do something similar to you, is there anything you want to leave them with from from what we talked about?

Vladimira Briestenska  49:36

I think it's probably just reiterating the point that we talked about, which is that there are no prescribed pathways. And I think I would recommend or not recommend a nudge, an urge, maybe the Human Rights graduates for that matter to really go wide in exploring what the different practical applications of bizarre and what professions and roles and you can be part of where you can co create, and maybe to be more practical, what really helped me was to actually do a little bit of research and find those people who are on some of those pathways. And maybe you have tons of questions around their profession and it feels maybe still a little intimidating, but I would say do reach out, that's what I did. It was quite a lot of cold calling and reaching out to people. And then people were actually quite genuine and kind to introduce me to other people, and in their way you will get a more real sense of what is it that they do, and rather than sort of staying in the theoretical expectation and then feeling frustrated or disappointed that is not really meeting sort of the hopes that maybe you we've carried, that certainly I would advise that to myself when I was younger. And that can be really, really helpful and liberating, as you said, Véronique in some way for for young people when thinking about what next steps they could take and what role to take in life.

Véronique Lerch  51:15

Thank you so much for the men are great advice and keep doing the great work and hopefully maybe we can have a season two, you know, where we invite you again. Do

Vladimira Briestenska  51:26

I look forward to thank you very much for creating a safe space for people like myself to share their story. So thank you very much.

Véronique Lerch  51:33

It's my pleasure.