There is no linear path!

There is no linear path!

Jingle Laura María Calderón Cuevas
Interviewer Véronique Lerch
Editing Brua | bruapodcasts.com

Transcript

Sabrina Galella  00:04

Two roads diverged in a wood. And I, I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference.

Véronique Lerch  00:19

Welcome to a new episode of our podcast the road less traveled! This is a podcast of the center of human rights from the University of Padova and Global Campus of Human Rights. With this project and this podcast, we aim at exploring the less usual career paths that are possible after a degree in human rights. We started it because we strongly believe that we need people doing human rights in many different ways. Our guest today Sabina Galella as LLM in human rights law from the University of Edinburgh, and currently leads the Policy and Public Affairs work at JustRight Scotland where she develops and executes policy and influencing strategies across a range of human rights and equality issues. The path to the current job and the studies in in politics and human rights was not the easiest one from what I understood from her, and we will make sure that today we will focus as well on the less usual paths that lead to human rights. And we will reflect on what needs to change to make studying human rights more accessible. Welcome to this podcast. Sabrina.

Sabrina Galella  01:26

Hi Véronique thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here with you today.

Véronique Lerch  01:30

Well, it's great to have you and before maybe we'll talk about your your path humanoids, I think it would be interesting for people to get a little bit of an idea of what your work your current work entails and what you're doing at JustRight.

Sabrina Galella  01:45

Okay. Sure. So starting with what I do, as you said, I lead the Policy and Public Affairs work for an organization that's called Just Right Scotland. And the name gives it away, we are in Scotland, and I live in Edinburgh, where today is exceptionally sunny and warm. And JustRight Scotland is a Law Center. And there are human rights lawyers who provide direct advice and representation to people where we identify that there are gaps. And we try and run a collaborative strategic model. So that means that we look at specific cases, and we intervene so that he can make a bigger change for people. So that's strategic litigation. And the aim is to ensure that people have access to human rights, and that they can secure their human rights. And one way we do that is to bring third sector organizations along with us to ensure that they can inform the work that we do. And what I do, I work across the four legal centers that we have. So we have the Scottish refugee and migrant center, the Scottish Women's Rights Center, the Scottish anti trafficking and exploitation center, and the Scottish Law Center. And I work across these four centers, as you said, I plan and develop our policy and influencing strategy to make sure that I can support the work of these legal centers. And I tried to highlight the specific gaps that there are in access to justice. And I can bring those gaps to specific keyholders stakeholders, whether that's the Scottish government, local authorities, these, it might be other organizations or other public bodies. And we try and find solutions to these problems. And I'd say a big part about this job is about building and really strengthening relationships with UK wide civil society organisations, decision makers, and again, that could be in Scotland, at the UK level, at the European level, and also with academic institutions, so that we can build evidence and base our research on the lived experience of people, because that's another fundamental aspect of our work to ensure that the voices of people with lived experience are at the heart of our work.

Véronique Lerch  04:09

That sounds great and very exciting work. But there's one aspect that is a bit this usual, I think, in the fact that you're doing this job as I mean, actually, maybe two things. One is the fact that you're not from Scotland, and you haven't lived in Scotland for so long. Say you're Italian. So I wonder you know how easy it is for you to fully emerge in that policy world from a place you're not from and maybe there's any pushback from anybody on this, especially as you talk. You're working on delicate issues. And also you did a master in human rights I think international politics now before, so you're also not a lawyer and you're working for a Legal Center. So do you feel that these are already like two? Yeah, I mean, for me, that would be two less usual elements that Couldn't make your work more difficult, but maybe it makes it better? I don't know. So what do you say about that?

Sabrina Galella  05:05

that's a very interesting question. I think definitely, there are challenges because I'm not from this country. And so sometimes even understanding how local authorities operate, it's difficult because it's something that other people grew up with. So even if you don't study that, specifically, you have an idea of an understanding of how the system works around you. And also, there are some aspects about the culture that I cannot always fully understand. And so sometimes it can be a barrier. But I think, in Scotland, I found my second home. And so that has made it so much easier because people have an interest in getting to know people who are not from this country. And I think that interest and that curiosity became even more acute after Brexit. There is a sense of loss in Scotland. And so I think there is a way people are looking for ways to feel they still belong in that European space. And so it's a disadvantage in some ways, but I think people here have always made me feel so welcome. And there is an environment where I can easily ask the silly questions. Also, because I'm not from here. And sometimes people don't even wait for me to ask the question they just gave the answer before I can even ask. And I think in terms of my studies, it makes it quite difficult to have to be honest, I studied politics and international relations, and that uses a very specific lens to understand the world and to make sense of the world. And then I decided to apply for human rights law masters at the University of Edinburgh, and I loved it. But I have to be honest, I haven't focused too much on the world law, I thought, human rights. And I thought, Great, I'm going to love it. And it was a huge challenge, because it's about the legal world. And the majority of students in my class had a legal background. So the level at which it started, was already quite high. And so at times, I felt a bit behind, I think what's useful in my role, is that I need to have that legal background to make sense of things and to understand all of the documents that I read, or if I have to write briefings, or if I have to inform people, but at the same time is very useful to have also that background in Politics and International Relations. Because I think they're complementary. In some ways, they use two different lenses to analyze the world, but they don't have the right answer. And so if you put them together, the world of politics and the world of laws, I think it becomes interesting, and it just makes it for a more enriching journey to understand just all of the issues that surround us.

Véronique Lerch  07:57

Now, for sure, I think the legal lens to look at human rights is very limiting. We need to embrace other lenses. And another way of looking at human rights if we want people to feel that human rights is something that is close to them, and not something that comes from legal documents, we do need to get other views, it is probably a big chance for JustRight Scotland to have people with different background. So you mentioned you know that you've done the LLM in Edinburgh. And when we talked before you were quite enthusiastic about that master in particular, I think you said that it was the one master you wanted to do. So I'm I'm curious to know. And it's free advertisement for the university. What made it so special?

Sabrina Galella  08:41

I remember because I was finishing up my dissertation for my undergraduate and I was still studying. And I think that comes from being a migrant in this place, that I knew that I needed to have something else to overcome the disadvantage that sometimes it is being a migrant. And so I started looking at postgraduate and master degrees. And because I've always cared about social justice in general, there was just one from the University of Edinburgh, I just started looking at different possibilities. And this one came up, and I read the syllabus and all the modules and the things that I could learn and the things that I could do with that. And I also had a look at the professors who were teaching the modules. And I said, This is it. And I remember talking to my husband saying, I'm just gonna play for this one. If it doesn't go ahead, then just fine. I'll do something else. And I'll do some work experience. But if it goes ahead, that's a great opportunity. Because I just wanted to know, I could understand from my undergraduate that there were some gaps that I couldn't understand when it came to human rights or this very nice word that we talk when we refer to human rights, and I felt okay, this is the place for me to be and this is the one thing that I need to make sure that I joined the dots of everything that is happening around the world. And I'm able to develop solutions that are based on politics that are based on geopolitics, but also based on legal aspects of legal frameworks. And that made a difference. And so I wrote a statement, send it. And then yeah, I did the Masters there. And it was great.

Véronique Lerch  10:29

Say it was love at first sight for this master. And you said it was going to help you to join the dots? Do you feel that the master did appear to join the dots, and in which way? I mean, you graduated not such a long, long time ago, I think this is also what makes this interview interesting is to get the perspective of somebody who didn't graduate such a long time ago, like maybe some of our other guests to know, in which way in that time since you graduated, in which way your understanding of human rights has changed?

Sabrina Galella  10:56

It changed quite a lot. Because I think before I knew that human rights existed, I just didn't know how they worked in reality, and I remember the first class that I had, that was about international law. And the teacher said, everything that we do in the world is regulated by international law. And to me, it was a foreign concept. Because I thought, surely, I should have known that if everything we do is regulated by it, how how, where is this international law? How can I see it? How can I access it? What does it mean to me, and so it started to make sense for very specific issues. And I think it gave me an added layer of knowledge when it comes to defending very specific issues. As I said, at the beginning of this conversation, you know, that I'm from Italy, and as you know, the past few years Italy has taken a really strong stance when it comes to people coming to our shores seeking asylum. And I've seen the change in people's reactions to more and more people coming to Italy. And I think that's because we have such a hateful propaganda that comes from our government, that even the nicest people are somehow convinced that there is something that doesn't work in the system in Italy, that the conversation is quite strong on being against NGOs, who provide assistance. And I remember having these conversations about the Refugee Convention and the Dublin regulations, and how it all worked, and how it all explained the system that we've had. And that gave me a way to defend the system that we have. And to defend the people who are making dangerous journeys to seek asylum. And I think specifically, that was a framework that I wasn't aware of before. And I think that the majority of people don't know what the Refugee Convention is, and what it does. And so that's why politicians can get away with saying things that are really quite untrue.

Véronique Lerch  12:58

But that's an interesting point, because in a way to people no need to know, does he need to know about this international human rights instruments? I mean, isn't that our job as well, maybe to bring it closer to them in different ways. I mean, I also feel like sometimes the argument of this instrument, for instance, I work a lot with the Convention on the Rights of the Child. And I always feel like when people just announced it like this, but then don't try to think about what it means like a translation into the reality and into practical steps it remains very abstract for people. And it doesn't have any implication for the decisions that they make, for policy, but also for very practical stuff in their life. So I wonder to which extent you had success in using that argument in your conversation.

Sabrina Galella  13:44

I think that's a very interesting point. And I think for me, the human rights masters provided the first layer, the layer of knowledge of saying, at least, you're aware that because of everything that has happened, we've created this treaty, convention to ensure that we are all safe and can live a life in dignity. But it was really through the different types of jobs that I've had after that I could take these very abstract ideas and translate them into reality. And I think that sometimes it can be one of the issues around how human rights are taught. Or maybe that's my experience. I don't know if it's true for it for other students. There can be the risk of human rights, staying in a different sphere, where there are just professionals and experts and teachers explaining what it means. But then they're really far away from the realities of people who should actually benefit from those systems. And so I think it then becomes the job of either really proactive institutions. I think it'd be nice to have governments around the world implementing human rights based approach not because there is a crisis or an emergency, but because they can. And they're trying to prevent issues happening in the first place. And there is also the need of a civil society who knows about the rights in the first place, and knows how to secure those rights. In my experience, when people need human rights, that's usually too late, something has already happened. And then if you are in a crisis mode, it would be really hard to ask people to think about the human rights and what it means and how we can change this and how they can seek redress in so there needs to be something before and I think that when it's important to have more people around this table, just include people who have experiences of those rights. In my sector, sometimes we say people with lived experience, sometimes you should be called real experience. But I think that's crucial if we are serious about making these human rights real.

Véronique Lerch  16:03

I think you're right. And I think very often, we forget to include people with lived experience from policymaking. And I think it's great that your organization is so focused on, including them in the discussion. I think it's those expressions are like sometimes saying people with lived experience, I've tried to translate it in other languages, and it doesn't work so well. So in English, it's easy, but it's difficult to translate. But the idea behind it is great. Let me just go back to something you said. I mean, you said that you always had an interest in social justice. So could you tell us a little bit where that interest in human rights and social justice? Where does that come from in your life? You know, where do you see the roots of the interest?

Sabrina Galella  16:46

I think there are two parts for me that I need to explain in my answer. The first part is that I think I've always had this feeling since I was a kid and I've told a few people the story, I remember the first time that I saw someone rough sleeping in Rome. And I told my parents, okay, when I grew up, I want to get a van. And I want to go around, and just get all the people who are rough sleeping in it then, you know, build a house and do something together. Of course, I realized that was a silly idea. But I guess the value was there of just seeing something and feel it in my guts, that it was just wrong, that felt like that wasn't a life lived with dignity. And I think it helped, because my parents always gave me the space to develop that sense of empathy and compassion. So it made it easier for me to just explore that and see what it meant. And so even when I was in high school, that I became a UN ambassador, and as you work the right to food, there were spaces for me to understand what it meant. And I think the second part to that question is, somehow I've been aware of my privilege. And I think that made a difference. I will talk about this later, probably. And I've always struggled with my parents financially. But I have some systemic advantages. I'm white, and I'm European. And I think I've lived part of my life, thinking that the way we live in Europe is the standard way the majority of people leave around the world. And then I realize that it's the other way around. We are the minority. And I'm not talking here about ways of government, or all the other things that we're doing in Europe, I'm talking about having access to basic things. And it may be having access to clean water, access to food, access to education, access to health care, all of those things that were normal to me, I never questioned them as being different. It was just a given. And then I realized, Oh, actually, that is not true for the majority of people around the world. And it just felt wrong. So I decided that there were ways for me to use that privilege that I have, and that I will always have to do something and I guess to feel useful to the world.

Véronique Lerch  19:15

But it's interesting that you're very aware of your own privilege, while actually as you said, I mean your family was financially struggling. you financed your studies yourself. When you came to London to do your bachelor, you actually worked in a cafe for four years. It's interesting to see that you actually even though for you, you manage to do your studies against all odds. Actually somebody told me that I should do a podcast called against all odds about all the people who study and manage to have a career in human rights against all odds. So maybe that's the next series and and maybe you should, you know, your experience fits in this. But basically this you know that you're aware of your privilege despite this background, That's for me quite, quite striking would then you manage to get to London, you finance your own studies? And do you feel that created maybe a difference between you and other students, the fact that you had to work at the same time and maybe some other students didn't have to.

Sabrina Galella  20:17

There was definitely, it created a big difference, especially when I studied in London, it was more common to have people who would study part time, and I had to study full time, which was fine. And I think it taught me organizational skills, it became a little bit more complicated when I did my master's. And I was told from the beginning that it would require many hours of studying per week that I shouldn't really be working. And I didn't have any other option. So I had to work. And I tried not to always work full time.

Véronique Lerch  20:53

So you worked full time during your master?

Sabrina Galella  20:55

I worked full time during my master. Sometimes it'd be 28 hours. And sometimes during Christmas or other periods, when we had all the days, it'd be 38 hours, 45 hours, so I could make up the hours. But I found a coffee shop where I could start at four in the morning, so that I could finish around 11 in the morning, and then it can go to school, and then studying half nine at night, going to bed crying like 'in 5 hours it starts again'. And I think it felt very isolating for me. And I think at the time, I didn't own it quite well, there was a bit of a sense of shame, because I was the only one I was the only one who was doing it. And the other people would be like, Oh, but that's so nice that you're working and you still manage to come to class. But to me, that was the only option. I've taken a really pretty big, private loan. And there is no way for me that I'm not going to make this work. And whilst other people I think had all opportunities to do networking, have lost it. And I think that's one of the things that then when I finished my masters made it harder for me to find jobs just because I didn't have time. I didn't find ways to connect and to do networking to do different internships. And so there was a sense of being on a different path and just feeling excluded by a system that is really not built for people who come from different financial backgrounds.

Véronique Lerch  22:28

Yeah, for sure. I mean, there's a lot of discussion as well around all the unpaid internships. And the fact that, you know, many of us are totally opposed to this and fighting it because it's quite obviously, I mean, I don't even know what we need to explain it. But it is making people who already have a financial privilege giving them a chance to network and get the professional experience that they need, which actually, sometimes those internships don't even give you that experience. But at least it gives you the illusion of the experience. And it's unbelievable that organizations that are supposed to promote social justice are still offering unpaid internships. Yeah, if you work at the same time, it's really difficult to network. It's true. And we always talk about the importance in this podcast, we always talk every single guest has been talking about the importance of networking, and you need to connect with, you know, with people, if you want to know about the opportunities, it's not that it's going to give you a job, it gives you a list of knowledge about the opportunities that are happening, or what we need to change. What do you think could could be helpful in terms of teaching human rights? Studying? Is there anything in particular that, you know, that would accommodate?

Sabrina Galella  23:43

I think that's a tough question. And I think partly, it should start even before people are interested in doing a degree. It should start in schools issued start in local communities, we've already talked about this human rights need to go where, where people are, otherwise, they just lost and they mean nothing. And so before people can even have ideas about what they want to do with their lives and their careers. Human rights have to be in public places, they have to belong in conversations with people with young people, so that you can generate that awareness. And then after that, I think it's the job of institutions is the job of universities to make sure that we shift that imbalance a bit. I think for people who come from difficult backgrounds. It's true that there are scholarships available, but to be eligible, you have to be the best student. And that is not the same for someone else who is a good student that has the financial means. So someone comes from a different background, has all of these added challenges that they need to overcome. And as you said, it's about internships, work placements. I was offered a work placement in Denmark to go and do my dissertation for three months. And I just couldn't go because I couldn't leave my job and my flat and work in a different country and pay rent and just be away for three months. And so I think big universities that have budgets in place have to think about new ideas. And at the international level, at the European level, we can create other channels and other platforms, where I think young people can find their mentors. I think it's about having these contacts. And we're young, so many things you're interested to, and find someone who can tell you the ins and outs, so that you can understand, okay, this is something I am interested in, okay, maybe this is something that I don't want to do right now. And they can tell you where to go. For me, when I started doing policy work. I didn't know what policy was. And also I don't have a translation in Italian. And it's something that that you understand as you work. And it's quite scary for people to be left on their own devices. And so especially for so many other young people who then don't even have the opportunities to go to university, how do you reach them? How do you make sure that then they can still sit at the table, they can still inform those decisions? And so it's different answers at different places. But definitely, we think in the way in which we do volunteering, and internships, and work placements, and how there is an existing structure of human rights institutions that existed European level, making sure that there is a hub, a place where some resources can be shared, for free, and that there are mentorship opportunities that can, all of these answers can be given all of these questions can be given a place for young people to access without having to go to places without having to leave their parents home without having to leave their jobs. And it's quite complicated. Unfortunately, for this country, it'd be good if some of these resources were online and on virtual places, because so many young people have lost opportunities because of Brexit. And so just to make sure that they're not completely lost, that there is a place that is slightly more accessible than it is now. And that human rights again, earlier in the career so that you don't need possibly a human rights masters to have an understanding of what it means. It just starts before so maybe you do it in your undergraduate and you already have like an in depth knowledge of what it is.

Véronique Lerch  27:49

Yeah, I'm actually totally I mean, you give a lot of good ideas. And what you just the last thing you said, I mean, it's something we talked about with Maite from one of the episodes where she actually, first of all, we don't need a human rights master to be an activist. And we shouldn't have to reach a point where you're at the master level to get the knowledge that you're talking about. And it should be much more spread. And I think maybe just to add to what you are saying, as we were talking just before about people with lived experience. And I think in that case, as well, you know, very often Yes, we get them involved, it takes time from maybe like them working or them studying. And I think sometimes, even though I think it's crucial, it does look a bit like extracting information from them. And it doesn't sound like including them. And it's not taking into account that they actually may be studying and working already. I mean, if we talk about, you know, for instance, young people coming from financial background, which are, you know, weaker, and asking them to, on top of it, do the policy work that you should be doing. So I think we also need to think about the way we do the work with people with lived experience so that it's not extraction, and it's really co creation, but that that might include also, us supporting them financially.

Sabrina Galella  29:05

Yeah, and I think can be very, very hard, because it requires a lot of resources from organizations. But it might be that sometimes it's we try and do it. And it's a bit too little too late. And again, it has to start a few steps before.

Véronique Lerch  29:22

The thing that you remember from your childhood about you being interested in human rights is the homeless people. And one of the first job that you got after your master was working with an organization working with homeless young people. Yeah, so you actually you close that circle in some ways. Yeah.

Sabrina Galella  29:39

I think that was important for me. I needed to understand the causes and the solutions and all of the other issues that come with people experiencing homelessness. And there's so many things that I've learned while I was doing that job, especially how to include people with lived experience. That was the first time that I was really doing it in depth. I did it before, slightly when I was in Mexico. But it was the first time that there was a real panel of people with lived experience. And it gave me a lot of food for thought.

Véronique Lerch  30:15

There are a few questions I still want to ask you, and one of them is which advice you would like to give to more recent graduates, if they start their job search when they're studying, I don't know which whatever advice you think is appropriate from your experience.

Sabrina Galella  30:31

I'd say to remember that there is not a linear path into a career in human rights. And it's okay to start later. It's okay to try different things. Because it's a really big world of ideas that sometimes are hard to understand because they're full of jargon. So even just to know what kind of jobs people would like to do, I think, find opportunities. And I'm saying this, because I couldn't. And I saw that for the things that I could have and should have done. Networking was a thing, I should have find time, even if I didn't have much at the time, because it creates those connections, you just have a name you have a person you have an organization that you can reach out to. And be clear about the things that you can do that you cannot do, it's totally fair to say that you won't do a long, unpaid internship. So demand the things that you want to see changed, and people can possibly listen to you. And if they don't, at least you know that you have not accepted exploitative opportunities. And don't worry if English is not your first language, don't worry if you just have to try different things, and then you end up not liking it. I worked briefly as a researcher at the Scottish Parliament. And it was a great experience. But it taught me that I wanted to be on the other side of things. And that's when I said, Okay, maybe I need to be there. And at the beginning, I felt that I needed to be within Scottish Parliament. And it's okay. Also, sometimes if you don't fit in, as long as you care. And as long as there are these values that you want to work on, you'll find your tribe, and you'll find your people. And it is going to take a while and they're going to be a few years when things are just going to be lost and confused. But there are so many groups of people that actually care and do fantastic work. And I'm looking to find people who share similar values. And sometimes the road is uphill. But explore all the things that you like, don't waste time doing the things that you shouldn't be doing, that you do not want to be doing. And just explore and dive deep into everything that is important to you.

Véronique Lerch  33:05

A lot of good advice, that's really something we should keep in mind. And I think we'll we'll I like that on the page a few episodes. Because it's, it's really crucial to think about all those things and to reassure people who just graduated, it's fine not to know what you want to do, it's fine to try and to experiment. And look at both of us. You know, none of us is an English native speaker, and we're having a conversation and it's all fine. And we're doing things that we like so I think it is possible, but it might take time. And you might be working in a cafe for a while. And you actually will learn a lot from it. I'm sure you as you said, you know, you learn a lot from working in a cafe and you worked a lot in different places, you'll learn a lot from working in Scottish Parliament, and you find a place where you feel like you can bring your you know, your values and and your competence to the best level. So is there is there anything in particular that gives you joy in your work?

Sabrina Galella  34:06

Oh, I think it's it's a small victories. And it's something that I had to reflect on. Because the work of policy, the work of human rights, the work of making the world a better place. It's a slow, frustrating job. You get to see changes in years and you have to be patient. And I see colleagues in my previous jobs, providing that emergency response being there for people in the now today. And that's not something that you get to do when you do policy. But what I've learned is that this is a place where it's a shared commitment, and no one really takes credit for anything but then everyone benefits from the victories. And so sometimes there are small victories, and you making a difference for one person. And I think specially now, there's so many things going south in this country when it comes to, to human rights and freedoms in general, to know that among that ocean of people who need help you making a difference for one, it's worth worth. And sometimes, you know, you think it's not enough it is, and it's never enough. And that's why you just keep going. And you try to involve more people. And just make sure that as you you help more people, you're to reach out so that there is a growing movement of people who are aware of their human rights, and we can secure the human rights before we need to have bigger interventions. But yeah, I'd say the smaller victories, all the small stuff that we make happen every day. It's really not a given. And so I guess sometimes it feels like being in a very privileged position to get to see that you've made a difference, even if it's on a very tiny scale.

Véronique Lerch  36:17

Yeah, and celebrating those victories. And as you said, celebrating those victories together is really important, because this is what we need to also make sure is that we, that we work together better, and we celebrate together much more and brings a joy in the work. As you said, I mean, it can be frustrating. I mean, is there anything in particular that you go back to in terms of literature, or music, that help you through frustrating moments.

Sabrina Galella  36:48

So I lean on heavily on my husband, because he loves poetry. And so he just picks a book, and says to me, listen to this, and because he loves it so much, I just love it back. But sometimes when the imposter syndrome kicks in, and I wonder, like I have no, I don't know how to do this, where they've asked me to do this, this is going to take too long. I have some reformations here with me. And some of them say, I am calm at ease and able to enjoy life. And I am empowered and capable to make choices in my own best interest. And sometimes it just calms me down. Because the work that I do is very reactive. And sometimes you have a plan in place, and you want things to happen. And then everything comes down crumbling, and you have to start again, and the battle becomes just bigger and bigger and bigger. And so you start questioning your own abilities to just keep up. And so I have some quotes just to remind me that I can trust myself, and that I can do the right thing. I think my values are in the right place. And so even if sometimes, I don't know, the technicalities of things, I know that I will find a way to know what the right answer is also, because I'm surrounded by experts, people and amazing colleagues. But in general, the network that exists in Scotland is great.

Véronique Lerch  38:12

You definitely have a fantastic civil society in in Scotland, we're all a bit jealous. And I'm always trying to learn from the experiences from Scotland, I'm very curious about which kind of poetry your husband is speaking, maybe you need to choose one poem with him that we'll put on the page. Okay. That would be one way of involving your husband. And actually, that reminds me that you created a platform is your husband is from Mexico, Anna, my husband is from Mexico. And you created a platform with him to other people from Latin America to set out to make the process of settling down.

Sabrina Galella  38:52

You just have a sense of, I guess, belonging in the UK, because that was his experience. We stayed in London, and then we had all sorts of problems with the home office. And so we had to leave. And we stayed in New York for a while. And in that part of the states that are bigger groups of people from Latin America, so it's easier to feel like you belong. And here. There are many, and you only find maybe students and the beginning when we moved here, he really felt alone. And so he thought, why don't I just start doing something so that people, there was just a place for people to reach out. And then to say, Hey, I'm here. And then it became slightly bigger. And it was about people also recommending places or activities or ensuring that you can signpost them to specific services if they need help. So we've been doing it together, but he's the brain behind it all. And so Fair's fair, really does work and I have to give credit to him. But I think it's a wonderful. It's a wonderful idea, just that you can create a place so that people feel like they belong, we all struggle with that sense of feeling isolated and lonely at times. So it's nice to create places where people can connect

Véronique Lerch  40:09

community building and a sense of belonging, you talked about it as well, in earlier in the conversation where you were saying, you know, you were looking also for this in the different activities you did, and in the studies you chose. So I think the sense of belonging and the community we built is something so important, and it can be the community around interest around many things. But yeah, I think it's very nice this project and congratulation to your husband, you have to pass it um, as we closing this conversation, is there any concluding words from you anything that you want to highlight, and or leave people with a message?

Sabrina Galella  40:47

What happens with people, I think there's only one thing that I would like to say is that the more you work into human rights, the more you try to understand this movement, and you really want to stand up for other people's rights. And I think it became clear in the work that I am doing now, where sometimes we defend other people's rights that are not necessarily my rights, but we can stand for other people's rights, simply because we can because we care. And because we are aware that that there's idea that attacking the rights of a group of people, it's an attack on all of our rights. And I think that speaks of the universality and intersectionality of rights, but also of a movement that can be built. And as you said, maybe in Scotland, we are particularly lucky, even though there are big struggles, but I can start to feel that moment of just a generation of communities coming together to stand united against the oppression and the discrimination and the inequalities and just coming together as communities, even though it's not my rights are your rights or other people's rights have been breached. But just because you have a sense of belonging and I think maybe goes back to there, and you can and you care, and you're aware of human rights, so you can intervene.

Véronique Lerch  42:15

Thank you so much, Sabrina, and thank you for leaving us with those words and this encouragement to everybody. Thank you so much.