To create a better world requires critical thinking

Jingle: Laura María Calderón Cuevas
Interviewer: Véronique Lerch
Editing: Brua | bruapodcasts.com

Transcript

Dumiso Gatsha 00:01

Two roads diverged in a wood. And I, I took the one less traveled by. And that has made all the difference.

Veronique Lerch 00:17

Welcome to this episode of The Road Less Traveled. The Road Less Traveled is a project of the Human Rights Center of the University of Padova and Global Campus of Human Rights. The project  aims at exploring the less usual careers and career paths that are possible after a degree in human  rights. We believe that there are no clearly defined career paths, entry points and routes to work with  human rights. So we need people working in different ways to contribute to making an impact in human rights. Our guest today has an unconventional background. Hi Dumi.

Dumiso Gatsha 00:51

Hi Véronique! how are you doing?

Veronique Lerch 00:53

I'm doing fine. And welcome to this podcast and to this episode.

Dumiso Gatsha 00:58

Thank you so much for having me. It's amazing being in Lisbon.

Veronique Lerch 01:02

Yeah. So we had the chance of having a meeting face to face, which is privilege, one of those days. So  our first episode is a face to face and not on Zoom. So this is fantastic. So do me maybe to start by  explaining what you're currently doing, you're coming from auditing, which is about which is unusual.  But then you did also something even more unusual, you created your own NGO called Success  capital. Can you tell us a little bit about what this organization is doing?

Dumiso Gatsha 01:33

So Success capital is a youth led, managed and serving grassroots organization working in the nexus  of human rights and sustainable development. This is as a result of really starting out in looking at the injustices that exist, and recognizing that there are significant gaps, particularly around youth agency,  autonomy, representation, voice and visibility. And so in having taken that pivot from auditing, it was  really recognizing that there was a need to strengthen not just the technical aspects in terms of  expertise, but also to ensure that the language, the framing, and being able to occupy spaces around  governance, needed that educational background. And so I'm really glad because it gave a certain level  of comfort, it gave a certain level of I think, really being able to exercise one's vision in a way that can fit  within special procedures and treaty bodies. So I think it's a great way to be able to merge the two  different worlds together. Because a lot of discourse is actually now emerging towards, you know, those  two thematic issues, unlike, you know, in 2012, or 2014, when no one ever saw the links between  human rights and the SDGs.

Veronique Lerch 02:46

So if I remember, well, you were in at in auditing, and then you did some volunteering, that made you  realize this, this gap in terms of activism. And then you did the Human Rights Master from the Center of  Human Rights for the University of Pretoria. And I was wondering, in which way that must have did a  difference in the way you're running your NGO. And whether that's whether there's anything that is  helping you from what you learn in terms of values and knowledge from that program?  

Dumiso Gatsha 03:19

Yes definitely, I think, you know, the first thing that I remember was being in a meeting, and basically all  the professionals that were there, because it was more of a public health meeting, you know, that  doctor and MBCs, and all these letters after their names, and they had like, paragraphs to their  biography. And next to my name was just activist. And I really wondered like, Oh, my good God, like,  Have I not done anything? Am I not seen as an equal within the context of this room. And I must say, I  found a lot of those spaces very intimidating, because sometimes it's the issue of access, right? access  in terms of eligibility access, in terms of having the means to get to that, you know, meeting or that  workshop or that advocacy mechanism. And so leading to my application to the Center for Human  Rights, it was really based on recognizing that I needed to have that competence. Because for me to be  comfortable in that space, I must be able to be well versed in a lot of the content. And I guess from  what I understand, we were you know, myself and one of our other classmates were the first non LLB  students. And I think, you know, that activist journey really opened my eyes, in terms of recognizing that  a lot of survivors of injustice generally cannot always exercise agency or autonomy. You see it in the  context of strategic litigation, you see it in the context of public health, where they aren't always allowed  to speak, and where, you know, when you're looking at a success or failure in one of those processes.  Usually, it's the lawyer that's speaking, you know, usually it's the activists and I was wondering, why is  the only one activist going across the country, you know, speaking on behalf of everyone else. And so I  think that's where for me just recognizing that there is a need to equip myself, as Nelson Mandela did  say 'education can be a key to changing the world'. And so I'd like to believe that it did definitely help  with that, because it's allowed me to be able to occupy space. And even in instances where I wasn't  necessarily welcome, it was really easy. Because no one can take away that education, you know, from  you, no one can take away the credentials from you. And it becomes really easy to be able to  assimilate, to speak the language and really challenge them in their own environments.  

Veronique Lerch 05:28

Interesting what you are saying, because I remember, we did a webinar together. And you mentioned  that the tools of the house won't break the house? Yeah. So in a way, my question would be, you know,  is not what we learn as part of our programs in human rights and and mastering human rights, actually,  tools that are not always appropriate in terms of really challenging as the injustices, the systemic  injustices? Is that enough, what we're learning? Is that enough to really challenge it.

Dumiso Gatsha 06:01

I think that's important, because I think, you know, we're in an environment where the geopolitical  context is always questioning science is always questioning academia, is always questioning, you  know, technical expertise and bureaucrats. And it's understandable, because there is no trust in these  various systems. We speak about justice, we speak about policies, but those you know, that justice isn't  really there in the context of a room, and I'm finding myself, you know, in the same room with an  abuser, you know, those policies aren't there to prevent the actual harm being done. And so I think, you  know, in recognizing this mistrust, it's not just because people like myself or many others who are  affected by the injustice of the world, and never formulated, you know, those, those policies and those  structures in the first place, because they were not built for us. When you look at petty offenses for you,  for example, you find that it affects the most poor, why because they cannot afford to pay the penalty  instead of going to jail. And so I think it's very important to recognize that education can only get you so  far. And it's unfortunate that many education systems are still inherently colonial, because they don't  speak or reveal the full truth about our history one. Secondly, when you look at knowledge production,  and recognize that people who are most affected have never been at the table, you know, there were  never participating in the design of the studies, they weren't participating in the standardization of  issues. In fact, they were exploited and extracted from when you hear about, you know, individuals in  history, who are being used as experiments, you know, where there were no ethics. And so I think it's in  recognizing that that mistrust is really deeply seated, and embedded in the social fabric. And that's why  patriarchy exists. That's why equality exists, right? Where we are ostracized as a virtue of things that  we can't, I can't do anything you know, about my skin color. But what I can do is really then equip  myself with the tools that I need to navigate the system. So yes, I can be resilient in the system, and  that's celebrated in the development world. But what does it mean to take down that system in a way  that can allow everyone to live in a just environment, you know, for climate justice, gender justice? And  I think for me, it's making sure that yes, we can equip ourselves with the tools of the master. But more  importantly, can we really imagine what an alternative looks like? What what we what is the purpose of  you know, the prison industrial complex, if it's not to rehabilitate, and reconcile, right. And so if we don't  allow ourselves to have that depth of a nonlinear story, and I think that's what education provides, it  allows you to critically think it's unfortunate that unfortunate, it's unfortunate that we're taught what to  think, and not how to think. And I think, for me, coming with that multidisciplinary background, made me  realize that right, is to say no, but the critical skill here. It's not just learning about, you know, the African  Commission on Human and People's Rights, but it's really then seeing where are the gaps and  critiquing that, acknowledging that it's really trying to create a better world, you know, equity is not easy.  And that means a lot of critical thinking, which obviously, isn't quite evident when you just look at the  public or political discourse.

Veronique Lerch 09:17

You're absolutely right. And I think from from a lot of what you said, now and and in previous  conversations we add, my understanding is that what pushed you to create your NGO was really this.  This will to give a space to people with lived experiences. People who didn't have, as you say, you  know, we're not sitting in the room who were not invited. But also like to bridge this gap between the  technical knowledge and activism which is, you know, like a place of privilege, whereas technical  knowledge has been, unfortunately in human rights, used a lot by lawyers. And we need to get that I'm  back. And I think this is also what we we live in this project. And this is what we need. We need people  from a lot of different backgrounds. You mentioned a different future. And I'm wondering, what would a  different future look like? Can you give us a little bit of a of your vision? Or what picture you have in  your head of what it will look like?

Dumiso Gatsha 10:23

I think, you know, there isn't even a need to reinvent the wheel. The world as we know it, you know, I'm  going to use the words of Nelson Mandela again, you know, Nelson Mandela spoke about how you  cannot teach a child to love because loving is inherent. But you can teach a child to hit, and we see it,  it's quite evident when you ask someone who is either erasing or challenging the existence of other  groups, you really see when you ask them, you know, a basic question as to why, you know, something  as simple as why. And you didn't realize that they really didn't think about the narrative that they're  peddling, they really didn't think about the harm that they're doing, because they genuinely thought that  there was a threat. And they have some fear that, you know, allowing others to have their rights means  that they trampled on their own. And I think the only reason why they have that fear is because they  know what it's like to be brutal and violent to other groups. And so I am reminded them that this  alternative world does exist, it exists because we know when to was there way before, you know, as a  concept as an ideology. You know, I am because you are, so I'm recognizing that it's a continuum. And  I see this as just literally the resemblance of the interdependency of the Sustainable Development  Goals, I see it as universality, and indivisibility of human rights, right. It's no different, it's just a different  language. But it has a different form of identity in that within the African context, it's recognizing that I  don't need to be someone's parent, or need to be someone, sibling, you know, to help them go through  school. And it's recognizing that I don't need a law to sit and tell me that I shouldn't beat someone else.  Because when that person has hurt, I am hurt. Because well, I mean, it takes a village to raise a child,  all these idioms exist. And so I think it's really being able to one trace back our steps and acknowledge  that there's so many powers that lie in the ambiguity that lie in the complexity of just being a human  being and recognizing what it means to be belonging. And there's that collective responsibility. And I  mean, when you look at it, it's within the thread and the narratives of some of the best practices in  response to the pandemic, you know, considering other individuals, when you need to wear a mask, or  whatever it is. And so I think it's not necessarily about reinventing the wheel, it's drawing from history  and seeing that, you know, we can be able to exercise kindness, and the feminist politics is based on a  care economy, what does it mean to care for our people. And people will certainly put political  connotations to what a socialist state is, right? And it's understandable because their identity and that  the association with that term can be very violent, it can be associated with a gross injustice, as in  history. But when we learn what really made communities thrive, was the basic tenants of humanity, our  very humanity, kindness, love, and recognize that everyone is equal, and recognizing that everyone is  of dignity and being able to treat them with that. And so I think when we move away from this narrative  of regenerative growth, this narrative of property rights, because a lot of laws really do emanate from property rights, the state is brutal as a result of property rights. And so recognizing that that capital  that's often deployed for that property, is really quite violent. If it's not exploiting bodies and labor, it's  exploiting the environment. And so I think, for us to recognize that the alternative can really be created  in a way that really is co creative, that's participatory, and that really is based in anchored on the very  values of our humanity. I think that's a easily achievable world. It's a feminist and future fit way for us to  exist in tandem with our planet in tandem with others.

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Veronique Lerch 14:31

Absolutely. So the future is already here. In a way, this is what you're telling us. So we just have to  manage to find a way to get all those elements of the present for a better future. That there was actually  a poet who said something very similar to what you said saying in other words is possible. And it's in  within this one. And I think it is it is basically what you're saying. Maybe now I would like kind of get Go  back to something a little bit more, I'll go back to something a little bit more pragmatic. I would like to  know, you know, because you were talking about an NGO, which has a structure, so you decided that  to occupies a space, it was important for you to, to have a legal entity, and not, you know, movement,  not something less structured. So it was important to have that structure. I'm wondering, you know,  what are the challenges that you encountered having a structure because sometimes there's a lot of  financial problems and, and other, but also maybe what are the rewards. And if you, if you get any  pushback from if you get pushback from some people, or from some institutions in the work you're  doing.

Dumiso Gatsha 15:46

Certainly, I think, you know, first, it was recognizing that a lot of issues were not possible as a result of  existing, you know, organizing frameworks. So, you know, Grant set, you know, only ever spoke about,  you know, strategic litigation, or the HIV response. And so I think it was, you know, recognizing that  there is this other, you know, alternative, and that you can create that alternative. However, you know,  you mentioned the institutionalization, which took some time, I mean, it took almost three years to be  able to actually register, because there were certain things that needed to be complied with. But also  the need to register or institutionalize, is now really actually anchored on, you know, the issue of  property rights, that it's better to deal with an institution than to deal with an individual, despite the fact  that we're advancing, I mean, when you look at a lot of laws, you're advancing individual rights, right.  But we know that the property, so to speak, or capital is often a lot more prepared, you know, protected.  And whenever there's mob justice, you know, the Police are deployed to protect the property, not  necessarily the people. When you look at a lot of injustices that occur even in humanitarian issues, you  know, yes, there are first responders, but a lot of people think and speak about the market crashing. So  it's recognizing that the only way that you can access some of these spaces is an institution. It's  understandable on one end, because of how the world is, you know, the world's architecture is basically  based, but also in that they can be a continuum that, okay, if someone then you know, fall sick, then  that there's someone else who can be able to move with that work. But I think when you speak about,  you know, now, the challenges that exist within that context, it means you have to make sure that  there's compliance, right, so regulatory environments are not always the same. And so that means you  can't just rely now on your education, right, because it's a whole different world. And I think it was  helpful coming from that finance background, because then you're not allowed to be able to exercise some of the competence from that end. But then now you have to navigate the space of mobilizing resources, and you then realize how unbelievably patriarchal and political events, because it's the boys  club of certain people who look a certain way, who speak a certain way, and who are an alumni and a  network as a result of having worked together or gone through some of the same fellowships. And it  becomes really challenging for you to be able to navigate that, because maybe you don't speak the  same language, or you don't speak the same way, right? Or you have a firm belief that it's possible to  queer climate justice. But for them, they're like, no, but your issues or health and your issues or  whatever. Because it's something that they studied in, you know, in a master's thesis, or it's something  that they had a conversation with someone who, you know, they're an alumni with, and unfortunately,  obviously, you can't compete against that proximity, in terms of relationship. And so I think it's complex  and navigating that world because you have to respond to whatever's emerging. And sometimes what  can be emerging, especially for me when engaging, you know, with public radio, I had my parents  asked me, but what am I doing? And they didn't understand it, because people were asking them  questions, it was really difficult to speak about queer issues, or LGBTI in 2012, 2013. It is still taboo  now. But I think because of visibility, and you know, different voices that are there, it's a little bit better,  it's a little bit more palatable. There are pockets of tolerance. But I think harmful gender norms, and just  some of these impediments to freedom, generally made it very difficult. And I think for me, I didn't know  that there'd be repercussions from a support structure. And I found myself in instances where, you  know, having worked in the corporate sector, basically, for a good six, seven years, where the conflict  and the security that came with a form of you know, formal employment whilst doing, you know, all this  volunteer activism, where that was taken away from me as a result of activism, and so heightened  visibility does come with repercussions. But I guess in more so I will say sophisticated because of  Bottom-up political makeup and that there wasn't you know, domestic conflict and so forth. A little bit  more sophisticated environment means that And the repercussions are more sophisticated. So  invitations that come in, so not being allowed to apply for certain things, you know, as a result of now  it's competitive, and then not having the same economic disposition, because unfortunately, you don't  sound and speak the same way that's palatable or that's acceptable to others. So I think, you know,  there's a myriad of challenges. But what's more important, is making sure that you not only utilize the  knowledge and the skills that you've gained, but that it really allows you to navigate the different  complexities that come with institutionalization that come with leadership, you know, amidst the  pandemic, and your volunteers want to take their own lives, that's not something that you will learn from  school or class. So I think it really isn't, it's like a full circle, you know, 360 of a myriad of experiences.  But I think it really does position you well, in the journey of leadership, right? Because activism really is  about leadership.

Veronique Lerch 20:55

So what would you say, considering what you just said, Now, you know, what would you say to  somebody who's going to create their own NGO and probably encountered similar problems and  challenges or what you had? What are the skills, you know, that allow you to navigate this and, and be  resilient, even though we don't like that word, but yeah, what would you say?

Dumiso Gatsha 21:20

I think resilience is a given, especially in the kind of world that we live in.

Veronique Lerch 21:24

I think, yeah, I think we expect a bit too much to be resilient. But yeah, that's another discussion.

Dumiso Gatsha 21:31

I think it'll be ideal, you know, it'll be an ideal world for you not to have to be resilient, right? Because I  think a lot of policies and regulations, you know, the operating environment, all of these are driven by  people, they're created by people. And so I remember when someone speaking was speaking about  inefficiency of government and needing to help people, you know, amidst the lockdowns, and there was  so much administrative red tape, and then someone said that the very function of government is to be  inefficient, is to distract you. And it's to delay you, because if they needed to be effective, then people  would be held accountable. And if accountability was a virtue in practice, then it'd be ineffective. So I  think it's having yes, that capacity to really critically think systems thinking, you know, having that  systemic focus, acknowledging that, yes, you have to be practical when you're in a room and  advocating. And then it's great in an ideal world to speak about socio economic rights, but also having  that knowledge and recognizing that socio economic rights are not justiciable in Botswana. And so what  then is a practical alternative within the context of the tools of the master, right, within the architecture,  the Human Rights architecture, in domestically? So it's really having a capacity to be flexible enough to  be agile enough to respond to the context to be strategic enough to network to be strategic enough to  navigate? You know, the different challenges? Because it isn't one size fits? All right? And I think when  you think about any recruitment exercise, you don't, you don't hire skill, you hire attitude, because you  can't train attitude, you can train skill, I think what's key is that it's the attitude that helps you deploy that  skill. So it's really about, you know, learning by doing and literally just literally doing, right. Because I  think, you know, the world is filled with fear. And so ultimately, if you're able to, like Madonna says 'feel  the fear and do it anyway', then I think that will get you very far.

Veronique Lerch 23:32

All right, I didn't I didn't expect a Madonna quote. Well, you know, I think what you're what you're  describing is, is sounds really tough. So again, I'm going to come back to the first part of my questions,  I do realize there were a lot of questions in my question, but it's like, what are the rewards of creating  your own NGO? And maybe what brings you joy in your work? Where do you find joy in your work?

Dumiso Gatsha 23:56

Oh, my goodness, it's so difficult to to, you know, the issue of joy, I think, has only been emerging in  my, in my language, or in my day to day conversations probably for a month now. Because when you're  in human rights work, there's a lot of frustration that the love angst, that a lot of disappointment,  because of the, you know, geopolitical climate. And because of the regressive elements that we often  see, whenever they judicial decisions. Whenever you know, policymakers then feel like they need to  win elections. And so I think, you know, for me, in all that I've just described, I would have never been  able to articulate it in that way, or even speak about it in that way, had it not been for the knowledge  gained. So I think it's in recognizing that in as much as someone can do a course, being in the kind of  journey of being able to find something even if it's just a campaign is really a learning process on itself.  And that's growth and unimaginable growth that literally cannot be a system reviewed in the same way  as many other things that are standardized in that way, and I think that is a reward in itself, because  many times, you know, when I think about some of the contributions that are made at a board level, when an advisory committee or when engaging with policymakers, they get surprised, you know, they wouldn't think that a human rights activist will be able to speak about financial instruments as an  example. And I think for me, it's not necessarily about validation, it's really about recognizing that the  breadth and depth of issues you're able to cover will be meaningful in any kind of world that you're in.  And so awkward enough, when I look at the pandemic, it was, yes, traumatizing was terrible, because  of not just the human rights abuses, but even at a care level, you know, with people around me where,  you know, we had someone who taken their own lives, and someone had gone through sexual abuse,  the ability to be there for people, and as much as it's not healthy, I think, is a strong point. Because for  me, it means that in my journey, it can be healing, you know, and that was recognized that one of the, I  think, was like top 100, Srategy and leaders in the category of healing. And I think it as much as I was  healing my own younger self with some of the atrocities that I had to survive in a very patriarchal  Afrikaans, post apartheid, South Africa boarding school. I did not know that it would touch other people.  And I think that's what I mean, Maya Angelou even Oprah say, so that's, that's a legacy, right. And  that's the legacy is in the lives that you've touched. And I say this, because I know sometimes it's not  always visible, it's not always tangible. And we expect to speak of fulfilling your purpose or being  happy. And we do not mention those because I think life can be very frustrating and tough. But I think  the joy really does come from recognize that Oh, my good god, I have grown and oh my goodness,  when I say something, and I listened to the recording, I'm really shocked that that's what I said,  because I don't really see myself as the kind of person. And I think almost everyone sort of feels that  way in some way. And so I think being able to fulfill your life and experience so many things, I meet so  many different people. It's just so powerful. It's really transformative, and seeing people starting their  own initiatives, even if it's not in the most beautiful way. I think recognizing that means that at least  you've done something in the world. Right. And it's worth it. All of those sacrifices and all of those, even  if they were not with concept.

Veronique Lerch 27:30

Thank you for that. I think definitely, I think it's it's a new, I think it's, it's, it's a shift in the language that  we use in activism that I've noticed as well, you know, talking about everything you just took now, you  know, love care, joy, relationships, where we finally, you know, do realize where, where is the impact that we're making, and be clear on this. And that's so important. I think it's good that we own that  language before, I think we were trying to be technical. And I think we didn't understand the way we  can bridge the technical knowledge with those values that you're talking about

Dumiso Gatsha 28:06

You can't eat GDP, you can't feel an international instrument. You can't replicate, oh, I mean, soft law,  you know, what a law, but it doesn't directly affect your life in the moment when you needed to. And all  of these after the fact. But when you think about kindness, forgiveness, solidarity, and ubuntu that is  going to be something that you feel that some that you can, you can even taste it, right? Because it is  when someone cooks something beautiful, and you feel it when that collection, so I think yeah,

Veronique Lerch 28:39

I can see, like, you were talking about tasting, and you were, you were looking at my cherries on the  table. So please feel free to have some. Dumi, I think I would be interested to know, you know, as you  said, you know, life can be tough, and where, where do you find comfort? You know, which I mean, is there like a type of music or something in literature? poem that brings you know, the comfort that you  need to keep moving, you know, is is or is that not a thing for you?

Dumiso Gatsha 29:15

Actually, I think, you know, because of just the not just the multidisciplinary background, but also just  the wide spectrum of issues that I found myself working in, I realized that maybe, and I think, you know,  as a whole self right, coming in with intersectional vulnerabilities and identities, and there is not always  just one, but I think maybe one of the most, you know, the most amazing for me, is a song called 'Not  yet Uhuru' it was done by XXX, I think and 'Not yet Uhuru', you know, we 'haven't secured our freedoms  yet'. Right. And it was a liberation song. And I think for me, it really reflects that there is always hope  that even when there's nothing else, and even when it's the worst of times, that's the one the enemy starts with a chicken or a rooster, you know, cackling as if it's early in the morning. And then you know,  the drums are beating. So I think for me, it's a, it's a rhythm that reminds me that there's so many  different elements that are weaved in together, because I've seen some reminds me of Mariam  Makeba, and, you know, she had been exiled from a country. And, you know, she, I think she was like  the first artist to speak before the UN. And it's just amazing when you see some of the narratives that  have come out of, you know, her own journey, being in exile, and then recognizing her ancestry as well,  in that process, and then challenging narratives through music. So I think it's really powerful, because it  really reminds me of the Brenda Fassi of the world, who are amazing, who are queer, and were openly  sexual as ever exercising body autonomy. And I mean, these are things you'd never think back in the  day. But I think that kind of music is what's really powerful is what really reminds us that we can  continue. So yeah, it's using such as music, but also just listening to, you know, audios around  motivational tapes. I know, that's something that I used to build my own confidence individually. But I don't think that it would have an impact in terms of how I feel about the injustice of the world. So that's  where the joy comes from different forms of artistry.

Veronique Lerch 31:19

Thank you so much for this I can i Yeah, we moved from the reference to Madonna and Oprah. I think  that was a quite a diverse conversation, maybe to close this wonderful conversation. I mean, what  would be your words of advice to young graduates who would like young graduates or somebody else,  you know, who would like to start an NGO in a country and maybe a bit fearful about starting, what  would be the thing that you would tell them?

Dumiso Gatsha 31:52

I think for me, it's really about doing it anyways. And then also not finding yourself locked down or  locked down by the business as usual, I think finding joy can look like having rest it doesn't always look  need to look like you need to get a masters and get a manicure. I think that's what's important for me is  that, you know, being able to rest really allows you to, to reset that. And I guess one of the best parting  ways for this is in sharing some of the stories, you know, in Winnie Mandela had shared a specific  experience while she was in prison. And where she said, you know, they, you know, they held her, they  would deny her from sleep and wouldn't always allow her to eat. And then there was a point where,  when they were interrogating her, she would pass out. And when she passes out, she describes her  body as having rested. And she says it was God's kindness to her. And I would never think that in the  worst of atrocities happening. And she says when that special with cold water to wake her up from fainting or, you know, pass it out, she'd feel refreshed and ready to fight again. And I think for me, that's  so amazing and so powerful. And so I think it's really by doing activism leadership is doing so you have  learned something, and you've you know, and it's amazing. But now I think, you know, in those words  of Nelson Mandela 'Change the world!'

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Veronique Lerch 33:14

Thank you that beautiful words to close the conversation. Thank you so much, Dumi, for this  conversation today. And we encourage everybody to follow your work on Twitter, LinkedIn, and all the  social media you're in. Thank you