Train patience and resilience!

Train patience and resilience!

Jingle Laura María Calderón Cuevas
Interviewer Véronique Lerch
Editing Brua | bruapodcasts.com

Transcript

Barbara Linder  00:02

Two roads diverged in a wood. And I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference.

Véronique Lerch  00:15

Welcome to a new episode of the podcast the road less traveled. This is a project of the Center of human rights from the University of Padova and Global Campus of human rights. The project's aim at exploring the less usual carriers that are possible after a degree in human rights. We started this podcast because we believe that we need to do human rights in many different ways. And today, we will explore with our guest, Barbara Linder how you can do human rights while working for a development bank. Barbara works as a senior environmental and social manager for the Austrian Development Bank. Prior to that position, Barbara was a senior legal researcher at the Ludwig Boltzmann Institute of Human Rights where she focused on human rights in development, cooperation and business, in particular states and corporate responsibilities, labor rights, land rights, access to justice and grievance mechanism as well as financial institution. Barbara has also gained experience in development cooperation with UNICEF and the Austrian Development Agency. Welcome, Barbara.

Barbara Linder  01:19

Thank you very much, Veronique. Pleasure to be here.

Véronique Lerch  01:23

It's the pleasure is ours. And maybe before we start asking questions about the rest of your career, maybe it will be important for people to understand what you're currently doing. So your focus at the Austrian Development Bank concern strengthening human rights aspects in environmental and social management processes, policy development, risk assessments and human rights capacity building. So could you tell us a little bit more about what that what that means?

Barbara Linder  01:52

Sure. maybe just as a quick sidestep, I first got into touch with with areas expert credit agencies, I think it was in 2007, when I was still at the Boltzmann Institute. And we did an expert assessment of a project the Human Rights assessment. And I found it very interesting, very fascinating. And since then, actually, I wanted to go to practice. And anyway, some 13 years, 12/13 years later, I applied to this job. And I had done my PhD on that topic. And yeah, and then I jumped into practice. And what it means in practice is that like development banks there are 15 development banks in Europe that cooperate quite closely, they are very much oriented to the IFC performance standards in environmental and social matters. So one big advantage is that there is a lot of interdisciplinary work and thinking what, as far as I witness comes now also to the Human Rights field that we talked about environmental rights. So there was already a huge groundwork on human rights that people were doing. That they it was a habit of assessing labor rights and community impacts. And so that was basically already in the in the corporate DNA. The Human Rights angle is now coming in. Because the IFC performance standards and the UN guiding principles for business and human rights are almost similar, but not 100%. Similar. And this is like due to political reasons and differences. And basically, my task there is to, to find the synergies between both standards, and maybe also to shift the perspective. And I do work also with other in a working group with other European activists to shift the perspective, from the classical stakeholder management perspective, that was more into the IFC standard towards a human rights-based approach. And that is really interesting. Because it's not so much difference in content, it's a difference in perspective. And, yeah, my one of my task is develop, to develop a human rights policy to develop a grievance mechanism. But I also do a lot of cooperation with external consultants, with other development banks, do work on concrete projects and try to show how human rights aspects can be conducive to business and can be a very good can widen the perspective of risk assessment.

Véronique Lerch  04:35

Okay, so human rights can be conducive to business. That's interesting perspective, as you say. I mean, maybe working for the development bank is mainly a change of perspective is doing because you most of your career has been focused on around human rights in development, cooperation and business. But now you're really looking at it more from as you said, you call it the practice so working the Development Bank is a private entity, you know, with a public mandating obviously kind of an hybrid entity. So would you say that the main point about working I mean, the main difference for you of working for this, let's say, let's call it the private sector, even though it's a bit in between? is the change of perspective? Or what is what else is different about doing, you know, doing human rights for a private entity?

Barbara Linder  05:32

I think the change of perspective is the main content point, because most of the things are already there, as I said, so it's just creating awareness on human rights. The main difference from coming from a from a human rights research and consultancy sector, in the private sector is I think, you have human rights as a concept. And you know, it theoretically, but then you discover that applying it into in practice is not a question of knowing the cases of the European Court of Human Rights, but it requires many more skills that you discover on the road. And it's not about and I think that's true for all private sector are all not human rights directly related works. It's not about sharing as much content as possible. It's about picking the people up where they are, it's about understanding them. It's about listening, it's about learning skills on how to how to make it digestible. So I think that's, that's a big difference for me.

Véronique Lerch  06:49

When I think that would be true, I think in many sectors, I think is when we're confronted to the practice of human rights and having to be a little bit more less theoretical and finding ways of, as you said, and like meeting people where they are with their knowledge and their values, it's very important. Do you see this a way? Because I think we're not really well prepared for this. When we study human rights, do you think there's a way we could, we could be better prepared for this? Or is that impossible, it really comes from practice,

Barbara Linder  07:24

I think there is a way to be better prepared, indeed. I really enjoyed the mastering Venice, and there was a lot of input. Though, at my time, it was quite academic. And also, when you start your job, and you work in the UN or so it's quite still similar bubble. I do think other skills would be helpful if you go to practice. And one of my most helpful skills that I tried to acquire is systemic change management. And that really helped me a lot. And it was actually a former colleague that advised me and he, yeah, he used that in many different trainings also with the police or so it's, that is something that one could also learn at university. And it's tremendously important for me

Véronique Lerch  08:19

interesting, systemic change management, yeah, definitely a very important tool. Or do you seeing human rights knowledge as changed since you started? Because you had many years of practice? And do you feel like your understanding of human rights has changed a lot since then,

Barbara Linder  08:38

maybe the knowledge has not changed. But the understanding of human rights or how I see human rights people is different. It is, of course, really useful to do a master because you have an overview because you know where to find things, and you understand the whole concept. But I also meet many like-minded people that did not study human rights, but they have a human rights mindset. And they want to go to achieve the same things. And if they have done, I don't know, water management or climate risk doesn't matter. So it's not everybody who wants to contribute and to be constructive, I think can do human rights or climate. It's not it's not necessarily the only ones, the ones that that study?

Véronique Lerch  09:24

Absolutely, I think we had, we had a similar conversation with one of our guests Maite who really wanted us to reinforce this idea that you do not have to study human rights to be a human rights activist or to do human rights. And I think that's, that's quite clear to me, but it might be good to indeed say it again, and also see that people do human rights without calling it human rights sometimes.

Barbara Linder  09:47

Exactly. And they are maybe not aware.

Véronique Lerch  09:51

And I think for me, what would be interesting is like this, this idea of being aware, I think, when were you aware for yourself that you wanted to do human rights? When did you feel like this is really you were clear you because you studied law. I mean, while you studied law were you already clear or did that come later, where do you feel this this, this commitment to human rights come from?

Barbara Linder  10:13

Actually, I don't know, I remember the first time when I was not satisfied with injustice was in primary school, and I was always helping the ones excluded. So maybe that's the first time I didn't know that it was human rights, evidently. And then I wanted basically, to do not law, I wanted to do something creative, went to be tailor the best, and then it didn't work out. And then I did law, it was just decision, a reasonable decision. And I really struggled with law because I didn't find it very interesting. But then I sat in the Human Rights course. And I had this strong gut feeling that this is what I want to do. And yeah, and from there on, I just followed the green lights and then got the master in Venice, I got the job at the Boltzmann Institute, I just had a very strong feeling that this is what I want to do. And, and actually, I was whenever I didn't do human rights, I was also not happy in a job. So I, I just there is an urge to do that. I don't know why, but it's there.

Véronique Lerch  11:20

Yeah, interesting. And what led you to human rights in business more, particularly, because you didn't choose the most creative part of human rights? For somebody who wants to be creative, well, maybe it can be creative. It's just maybe my idea of human rights in business.

Barbara Linder  11:36

Well I started out at the Boltzmann Institute with a project on asylum procedure, and I found that really sad and difficult, and yeah, basically, a very difficult area. And I wanted to go to business because I thought, if businesses want to contribute to human rights, they have really a lot of leverage, and they have power and and I saw good businesses contributing to human rights willing to contribute to human rights. And I think they can be a driver, and it seemed to me more positively driven so that you can make a positive impact instead of only fighting against something like a difficult asylum system. So that was and I don't regret it, actually, I think business is still something very important for human rights. And and it's also a sector that that I really like to work in.

Véronique Lerch  12:36

And and what would you which which type of advice would you give to a graduate or as we say, before, no graduate, but anybody who wants to work in human rights in the business sector or work in the private sector doing human rights? Is there any specific advice you would give to them?

Barbara Linder  12:56

There is actually, well, I can, I can only quote, my learnings that I haven't gained so far. And I mean, it depends where one is coming from. But if you come from a more research university background, maybe that's not so much on the radar. For me, it was really crucial to study and try to understand the corporate culture. So what is important in business for in your company? What is for what you get benefits, not only financial benefits, but for what you collect positive points, what is also the currency is the currency knowledge, or is the currency, I don't know, maybe going along, speaking up, it depends on the company. And what is also a no go. So these are the rules of corporate culture, they are quite helpful and also important. If you want to integrate, and I think that will be the case for many businesses, that it's coming as a new idea, human rights to business. And so if you want to make it work, you have to understand how the corporate culture functions. So that that was really that was really important. Then another thing that was also important is to look basically at your own conditioning, and where you're coming from, what are your beliefs, what are your values, and it's difficult, especially for human rights people who are so value driven, but the more you can take the observer perspective and be strict with yourself and try to get over your values and your concepts, the better you can find solutions.

Véronique Lerch  14:44

What you are saying is not forget your values is understand better, what is driving you what is what is what are the drivers What are your values so that you can also understand better the values of the people you're working with? Is that what you're saying?

Barbara Linder  14:58

Yes, I mean, you have to try to understand the people you're working with, and well, as a human rights person, it's very linked to values, it's there is a red line where you cannot get over. But maybe you have certain beliefs about, I don't know, companies, NGOs. And so if you go to, to a discussion with these beliefs, then the, the more open you are, the better for your result, and for the corporation and others have other beliefs, they have other beliefs about human rights, about NGOs about so that is something the cleaner you can get from that the more constructive, because otherwise, it's just sometimes hindering to see.

Véronique Lerch  15:46

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. And I think somebody we I just interviewed was actually saying that maybe sometimes, people who studied human rights, I have a bit of a sense of moral superiority, that is actually injuring them to work efficiently with, with other sectors. So that fits with what you are saying.

Barbara Linder  16:09

and also, I mean, that's, that's also my learning. And I'm not saying that I succeeded in that very often I don't succeed. But and especially as a lawyer, you're quite judgmental, you see, it's right, it's wrong, there is no gray areas, but at the end of the day, it's about finding a solution. And of course, there will be areas where you cannot agree never, and that's also the benefit of change management, you get out of this judgmental perspective, and you take the meta level and just look at maybe underlying beliefs or concerns, and then you can tackle them better than if, if you think, Oh, this is how it should not be because it is the way and you need to deal with.

Véronique Lerch  16:49

And in terms of advice, I mean, as, as we know, you know, starting a career after a degree is very hard and can be very confusing. Is there advice as well, or any learnings that you have, in terms of, of what is useful when you start your career, and when maybe some things that you wish you knew you wish somebody told you when you started your career.

Barbara Linder  17:18

I mean, I was basically very happy with my education at that time when I started. And I think I was very blessed to have this education. Of course, it would be nicer if you if you're young that you would be a little bit more resilient, and you would be a little bit more laid back. And I think what, what is really useful if you work, but in any area is to know about different personalities. As I said, change management. So those are kind of soft skills, that are really helpful. I think it differs of where you want to go. And if you go in areas that are not so close to human rights, maybe sometimes you really need to prove backbone and you you grow this backbone as well. But I wouldn't say that, that there was something that I was completely missing on the education side, the rest is then you know, you grow into something until you learn your lessons, hopefully, and you get better in what you do.

Véronique Lerch  18:23

And anything that helped you find the different positions you had or to get started.

Barbara Linder  18:32

Do you mean that to get started in a job or to get started? Yeah,

Véronique Lerch  18:36

to get started in your career after you started? After you, you know, when you when you start looking for the first job?

Barbara Linder  18:43

Well, actually, my first important internship was at UNICEF. And I just, I was just asking, I asked people, I was just I think what helped was showing real interest and commitment and being open to learn, and not being shy to ask, I think, approaching people that maybe.

Véronique Lerch  19:05

yeah, no, I think it's similar to what a lot of people say, Yeah, I think being proactive and approaching people.

Barbara Linder  19:11

But then you're also lucky that there are people who are willing, you know, to work with you. So it's both sides.

Véronique Lerch  19:18

Yeah, I guess and I think not to be afraid when somebody is not willing to just move on and go to the next one.

Barbara Linder  19:24

Right. People will come to you.

Véronique Lerch  19:26

Exactly, exactly. I am wondering, I mean, now let's let's focus on the career, but I mean, I'm wondering, you know, maybe especially looking at your, your specific sector of human rights, do you is there anything that correspond to a full vision of the future, you know, is that something that you really would like to see change in regarding business and human rights in general that you really hope to see in the coming years? That is really But the one thing you, you know, as you were saying, you're very driven and you know, for you Your mind is is is a clear is what you need to be doing. But is that one thing in particular that you want to see change in business and human rights, for instance.

Barbara Linder  20:16

I think if there, if I could paint a hopeful vision, then it was that more and more people would become aware of how important their contribution can be, how important their thoughts, their act can be that everybody can contribute. And everything is valuable, and that we move towards a culture of respect and cooperation for the planet and for the people. And I honestly think something that would make a big benefit for for the changes actually education, it's not about learning books by heart, it's about learning how to ask the right questions, how to think critically, that I think was, is one of the most valuable things and I truly believe in the young generation. That they will do good. Yeah, hopefully.

Véronique Lerch  21:19

I mean, you're in a country where young people actually taking the government to court on on the environment. So let's see. Let's see what that brings. So the new generation is taking Yeah, it's taking over

Barbara Linder  21:33

teams, they're quite aware.

Véronique Lerch  21:35

Housing there. So what brings you joy in, in your work in particular, is that brings

Barbara Linder  21:42

me joy is in particular, connecting with people also, when I go on site, visit with projects, learning about local views, talking to them, trying to understand them. It's also what actually I, I always like to learn, and if there are some senior officers really good in negotiating, and you would just, you know, observe and be there so that that's really good. And then also you have, you always have like-minded people that work on the same thing. And when you work together, and you try to find new solutions, that's quite rewarding for me. And that's, that's also giving me energy.

Véronique Lerch  22:23

And is there anything else that gives you energy, like, book program music, you know, when times are hard? Do you have anything in particular, I keep seeing particular other than why.

Barbara Linder  22:38

I mean, particularly, particularly related to this job. I would say that, while there is not a of course, I like to go out or to the to the woods. That's what gives me energy, but it's like, a particular book was really also related to change management. And that's from Duncan Greene, how change happens. So that was quite useful. Yeah, I think I would mention that.

Véronique Lerch  23:07

I'd say that's a good book, I think we'll put the link to that book. I think for for human rights people, it's definitely a good book to read and change. Yeah, I mean, we're getting we're getting close to, to the end, I don't know if you have any more advice that you want to give to, to people wanted to work on human rights, or any concluding any concluding words,

Barbara Linder  23:32

maybe one thing that that seems important to me, is also in a way to be modest. Because even with the best ideas, and the best education and the best plan on paper, you can only plant seeds, and you don't know when the seeds will be growing. So you cannot determine the timing the weather. It's just something that, for me is important to let go. And, and the right timing will come if it's meant to be but we often want to have a deliverable at the end of the day. And that should happen in this and that time. And actually, I I learned that it doesn't work that way. And I think that that also releases pressure from one's shoulders, because it's just you're just making a small contribution, but the contribution is important, but it's a seed.

Véronique Lerch  24:29

That's true. And I think sometimes your contribution is not always what you expect. I mean, I think what is important is yeah, you know, we have some time unexpected contribution, but it's important to continue doing the right thing and to be persistent.

Barbara Linder  24:41

Yeah, definitely.

Véronique Lerch  24:43

I think persistence and resilience. Yeah, you mentioned resiliency are important qualities for human rights activists.

Barbara Linder  24:53

But basically, I do think that most of the people want to do good, and they just sometimes don't know how and if you have a good cooperation partners and good colleagues. I think you can motivate more people.

Véronique Lerch  25:06

Yeah, no, I do believe so too. Well, Barbara, thank you for this conversation. It was lovely having you today.

Barbara Linder  25:13

thanks very much for the interview.

Véronique Lerch  25:15

Thank you