Understand who is on the other side!

Understand who is on the other side! 

Jingle Laura María Calderón Cuevas
Interviewer Véronique Lerch
Editing Brua | bruapodcasts.com

Transcript

Francesco Bruscoli  00:06

Two roads diverged in a wood and I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference.

Veronique Lerch  00:19

Welcome to a new episode of the podcast The Road Less traveled. This is a podcast initiated by the Center of Human Rights from the University of Padua and Global Campus of Human Rights. It's hosted by me, Veronique Lerch. With this podcast, we are exploring the less usual careers after a degree in human rights. We started it because we strongly believe that we need people doing human rights in many different ways. And our guest today is doing human rights in some unexpected ways. Francesco Bruscoli is a graduate of the European master in human rights and democratization. At the beginning of his career, Francesco worked for several international organizations like OSCE, UN, ICRC in different countries, primarily in in the protection domain, is then worked as senior development manager for Africa at FIFA. He continued working on sports development as an independent consultant before joining ICRC in 2018, as detention advisor. For the past two years he has been prison director at the front work prison in Geneva. Welcome to this podcast, Francesco.

Francesco Bruscoli  01:29

Thank you, Véronique, I'm happy to be here. You see, like we mentioned Geneva and right away, I moved back to French. And I want to say prison. But we're going to do this podcast in English. So I read in your bio that you started being an Amnesty International activist at 16. Actually seemed like I did the same as well. So I'm quite interested, like to kick off the conversation to know when would you say that your human rights journey started? And where did your interest for human rights come from? Because I guess there's some things that prompted you to become an Amnesty International activist. Yeah, I think it started in my teens, when I probably started developing my vision of the world in general, I think I am, generally speaking, animated by a certain sense of justice. And human rights is about fighting injustice. In a nutshell, I would say, and then, Amnesty International was my sister's fault, she was already active. So I joined her. Initially, we joined the group in my in our hometown. And then when I moved to Gorizia, the place where I studied at university, there was a local group there, and then I became active and eventually became the spokesperson of that group. So it became quite deeply involved with Amnesty International, representing the group at national level. And I probably would have continued if I had stayed in Italy, but then my career evolved abroad. So I am still a member, but not an active one.

Veronique Lerch  03:20

So, when you moved to Gorizia, I, you studied international relations or politics.

Francesco Bruscoli  03:28

It's in Italian is called International diplomatic. So it's basically political science, science.

Veronique Lerch  03:35

And then from political science, what made you study human rights? Was that clear from during your studies that this is what you wanted to study? Or that came late in your studies?

Francesco Bruscoli  03:47

No pretty much. I mean, my aim, at the time was to work at international level in an international organization. And, of course, it made a lot of sense to me to link it with my interest in human rights. I, my thesis at university in was about the International Criminal Court. So yeah, I think it was just a natural development for me to, to deepen my understanding of human rights. And, and then I was able to join the masters. So from from there on, it was very clear to me that that was my focus, which was not necessarily the case for everybody. I mean, we had lots of people who were obviously into human rights, but don't necessery into international organizations and they joined academia for instance, or or they left the domain altogether.

Veronique Lerch  04:44

And well, you can have left the domain as well. So your professional case started in a more classical way. As you mentioned, you were interested in working for international organization. So you did that for a while and then suddenly in 2010 you took a job at FIFA, which is the International Federation of Football Association - just to make sure people know what I'm talking - about as a senior development manager. So what led to this career change? what happened in 2010?  

Francesco Bruscoli  05:13

2010 was a year during which it took a sabbatical. So it was a day off work now that they have it was a year off during which I started traveling throughout Latin America. And then it was really by chance, like a former ICRC colleague, who had moved to FIFA, told me that there was this position and asked me if I was interested, and I didn't really think seriously about it, but I did send my CV. Just to tell you how not serious I was, I didn't even send a motivation letter. And so she came back to me said, it might be good if you also added a motivation letter, which I wrote in internet cafe. So it was just almost a game so it was not really serious. And then it became serious. And then I you know, different type of motivations, behind my choice. Some of it was also to have a more stable life. And other one to follow another passion I have, which is mountains, and obviously Switzerland, where FIFA is based is the perfect place to, to do ski hiking and hiking, Alpine, all sorts of alpine endeavors. So it was partially a professional choice and partially a personal choice. But somehow, I mean, it, it still remained in the development domain, which is not far away from human rights, if you wish. So like, obviously, it was sports development, football development, development in particular. But Africa is a place where you can really make a difference in people's life, if you work well, even in sports. So I think in terms of resources, all of a sudden had a lot more resources that they actually needed. And coming from, you know, human rights organizations that typically would like to have much more resources all the time, it was a big, big change.

Veronique Lerch  07:19

Yeah, I can only imagine. And do you feel that human rights play any role in in that position? For the time you were there? I mean, did you manage to use some of your learnings from human rights in that position?

Francesco Bruscoli  07:35

I think I use a lot of my understanding of Africa in that position, because I had been working in Rwanda already, in Central African Republic, in Ethiopia. And being the person in charge of Africa, obviously, that was a very relevant experience. I think more than human rights, it was just like, an overall social approach to football that I had more than other colleagues, for instance. So for me, it was much more important to develop youth football, women's football, grassroot football then anything linked to professional football. So other colleagues came from a more from a background that was much more linked to club football and much higher level so I think the overall approach I adopted was really try to have an impact on communities and and on people who could get better chances not necessarily to become professional players, but you know, just better chances to have a better life. Altogether. Yeah. Okay.

Veronique Lerch  08:42

So after a few years at FIFA, you then worked again for ICRC were you Oh, no, you worked as an independent consultant in between Yes. And then you worked for ICRC where you were in charge of policy oriented action in the domain of detention. Maybe you can explain just in a few words, what that position entails. So that people maybe understand that as a transition that you did after that, sure.

Francesco Bruscoli  09:09

I mean, ICRC works in several domains, from medical to engineering and an assistance and but a big part I would say part of the very core business of ICRC is protection. And protection is refers is divided into three main types of activities, one of which is establishment of family links, and other one is protection of civilians in armed conflicts. Basically, everything related to the implementation and respect of the humanitarian law. And the third one is detention. So these it's to initially, POWs prisoners War and POWs camps. But then with the evolution of conflict, which has been a lot less of international nature and a lot more of non international nature, the ICRC moved on to a systematic approach of visiting prisons altogether, not not just POWs camps, which haven't been existing for decades until the Ukraine and Russia war, because for the rest, most of the conflicts are internal. And therefore, people arrested in for the four reasons linked to the conflict are detained in prisons. So I've been I've been visiting a lot of prisons worldwide, pretty much in every country where I worked prisons, police stations, all sorts of places where people are detained, which sometimes are not official or not made for detention.

Veronique Lerch  10:57

So yeah, so you moved in from that place of being the person monitoring the standards of human rights in prison. And you took a leap into working directly as a prison manager. So that's quite a quite a big leap and the big change of perspective. So I would like to know differently this to work. First of all, if you think you're working on human rights, and still as a prison director, and and are different, it is for you like this change of perspective to work now on human rights as a prison director as opposed to a detention advisor for ICRC.

Francesco Bruscoli  11:33

in the belief that there is a strong link between the penitentiary system such as human rights, as a matter of fact, the European Court of Human Rights has a an extensive case law on detention, or and not only on Article Three, which is the one link to torture in the prohibition of torture, inhuman, and degrading treatment and punishment, but it touches pretty much every single other right, that is out there. So even right to privacy, obviously, like right to family link, have been analyzed by the court. And also, obviously, within the limitations of a prison, these rights still exist. And so ensuring their respect is important as as a prison manager. And I would say it's really part of the very reason why prison should be there is ensuring dignified living conditions. And I really interpret my daily work as aimed at improving the quality of life of people detained in my prison. And obviously, the advantage of working in Switzerland is that resources are there. I think, you know, you start from a very high standard altogether, I would say, among the best living conditions in Europe, without any possible doubt. But still, there is a lot of micro things that can be improved on a daily basis. And sometimes the ideas come from the detainees themselves. So if you listen to them, and then you find ideas, and if it's not the detainees, it's the guards. And again, I'm not making any revolution, because what I inherited a prison that was working well, and where there was a very human contact between the staff and persons detained. The best I've seen in my life, definitely. But still, there's still improvements to be made. And I think this is human rights. I mean, it's the what I see as human rights, for sure.

Veronique Lerch  14:06

Well, it's interesting what you said, because I think a lot of in a lot of the conversation, people do come back in terms of human rights practice to listening skills as well. And I think you mentioned that the fact that you're listening to basically the detainees and the staff of your prison to make improvement and comply to human rights. So that's, that's,

Francesco Bruscoli  14:26

yeah, I think listening and also in interviews are very important. As a human rights professional, you you, you spend your time interviewing people in different ways. And these skills are very important when you speak to the attorneys. You really need to understand what they want and and what their problems are. And you know, just today like I spent a lot of time with with a person who wanted to have certain information, which were not available anything, being able to interact with people at this level is very important. It's not just a humane attitude that you must have. But it's also professional background that you need to have how to relate to somebody who doesn't speak your language, who doesn't have your views, or you know, when there is an imbalance between you and him, etc. And I think in that respect, my field experience was very, very useful for me.  

Veronique Lerch  15:30

Because before we started recording, you were telling me that which type of prison you're you're working for, which is a very special type of prison. Maybe you could just explain how your prison works. I mean, who are the detainees in your prison?

Francesco Bruscoli  15:46

Frambois is an administrative prison. So the people we have are foreigners who have committed a crime in Switzerland and either have been condemned by a judge to be exposed to be sent to their home country or to a third country, or for less serious crimes. But linked to a repetition of these crimes, the state authorities have decided that the person has to leave the country. So it's what I call postpenal. In a way, because the vast majority of people coming to Frambois have I would say, they have heavy penitentiary parcours, but at the moment they come they have purged their produce with with justice. So the that's also one of the reasons why we make sure that we try to distance ourselves as much as possible from a classical prison. And we try to get as close to institutions where people stay freely, which is not the case, obviously. I mean, of course, they are detained. But I think in terms of philosophy, we want to get inspiration more from what we say in French 'foyer'. I don't know in English, like it's

Veronique Lerch  17:16

not a shelter.  

Francesco Bruscoli  17:19

basically, a shelter can be can be a good, good translation. Yeah. But obviously, the fact that people are not allowed to leave makes a big difference. So inevitably, it does look like a prison, you know, it has

Véronique Lerch  17:34

deprivation of liberty.

Francesco Bruscoli  17:36

Exactly. I was wondering, because I mean, it is that it sounds like those people have been condemned twice. You know, that's what we call the 'double peine' and getting twice condemned for a crime you committed. So that might be I mean, I don't know if they all are willing to leave or the country or the if that's also an issue that you have to deal with. Some people would like to stay in, in Switzerland or have a life in Switzerland?

Veronique Lerch  18:04

Yeah, did you have all sorts of individual cases you have people who want to stay people who want to leave. And obviously, it makes a big difference in terms of how we relate to them, and what their needs are, and how we can anticipate these needs. In some cases, we cannot really cater for those needs, but we can paliate some of the suffering, which is which inevitably, is there. I think one element that we really have to deal with is the unknown. I mean, the persons who come to Frambois they don't really know when they will live because sometimes the procedures can be lengthy and they don't know whether they can stay in Switzerland because sometimes people are allowed to stay or are freed as well. So there is a lot of unknown for even more unknown than the normal you know, like if you're in a prison and your sentence is due, after two years, you know, which day you will you will exit that prison, but if you can get out after two days or after several months, so that element we have to take into account and it can be a source of anxiety, which we do all our best to minimize obviously. The other thing we are good at if you wish is really relate with pretty much everybody like the staff we have come from the same countries where the people come from themselves. So they we have a lot of people from mean a lot. We have some guards from from Northern Africa, from Sub Saharan Africa, from the Balkans. And we speak pretty much all the languages that we need to interact with them. So that makes a big difference. We don't have have to think about the cultural way we know their cultures, because you know, it's our own. So, you know, when it comes to Ramadan, half of my staff is Muslim. So they definitely know when it is and what should be done and they come with the food themselves and, and in the interaction is really direct is not mediated by, you know, learning somebody else's culture, I mean, it's, it's really their own. So it's really a very special place. And it's difficult to speak about it somehow. Because in its daily routine, the prison can really show you aspects of normal life that you would never find in in a prison, or even interaction that goes far beyond, you know, the one between a guard and a detainee. People who call back when they're released and give news, even when they're sent back home, unwillingly they're forced to go, and then they just call us back saying, Oh, we are home, I'm home. Everything is fine, which I initially found really, really surprising. But for me, it is an indicator that it's work well done. If if some some level of attachment is produced between a person and a prison, I mean, that's something unique.

Francesco Bruscoli  21:27

It's yeah, it's about treating people with dignity. And so that's a at the core of human rights. But do you feel like there's something getting in the way of you applying and using human rights to guide your work? I mean, is there like some frustration in your work? In terms of managing these limitations? No, I wouldn't say I mean, I obviously could do with more resources, that that goes without saying I could do with a better infrastructure. But altogether, I think I'm given the means to do my job properly. And the funny thing is now, you know, I'm receiving a lot of visits of people like me before, who who analyze my prison or in all their aspects, all of a sudden, I'm bombarded by now you name it. I mean, we have national commissions, we have the international bodies, we have NGOs, we have cantonal visitors, because you know, Switzerland is a federal state. So we have the each Canton sends their own delegations from the local parliament who, who looked into the way we work and, and obviously, everybody, all these bodies have different level of professionalism, different level of understanding of how a prison should work. And all of a sudden, I also realize how perhaps a bad ICRC delegate I was before, you know, because if you stick to the rules or to the principles, sometimes you don't really, you just see half of the picture. And then a prison is run based on practicalities as well. You have people working in shifts, and you have to organize the detainees' time within the prison. So everything is regulated for a reason. And then also, the security part is there to also protect the detainees themselves, as well, not just not just as a way to control the place. So and it's very interesting, this dialogue that I have with visitors, where I have to sometimes explain why I'm taking certain decisions, bearing in mind that I would have probably made the same comment if I was in their shoes, you know. But I think it's, it's easier for me to switch a little bit and, and explain from a professional perspective, why certain recommendations might backfire, for instance.

Véronique Lerch  24:12

Well, I guess, you know, in a lot of our positions working for our international organization, we have a very theoretical approach to, to monitoring, or we come with standards that should apply, we don't have a good understanding of what it means in practice.  

Francesco Bruscoli  24:29

I'm just making you a very simple example. You know, one of the visitors said, Yeah, we don't like the fact that it looks like a prison, and that there is all this barbed wire. And they say, Yeah, I agree. It's not nice to see aesthetically, it's not nice to see. And I wish I was a director of an open prison where you don't need the barbed wire, but the moment you have a closed prison, you know, that barbed wire implies that I can allow people out a lot more because I don't have to have additional staff here, I don't have to fear evasion because I know that the place is secure. So I can go out myself with a couple of detainees working in the garden. And it's a normal routine for me if I didn't have that, but why I would need a lot more external security. And I think people understand it. But obviously, I agree with them, you know, aesthetically, it's not nice to see barbed wire.

Véronique Lerch  25:27

So is there is there like a piece of advice that you would have for human rights practitioners, for them to understand the ways you can best support prison directors in upholding human rights. But then to understand better the other perspective, you know, to understand the other side, because now that you kind of changed side, and you can have a little perspective, do you have any advice for them on how they could and do their work better to better support people like you?

Francesco Bruscoli  25:57

I think the main advice is to understand what you're talking about. And this applies not only to prisons, but also military operations. If you go and speak to general, just from a purely principle perspective, disregarding the practical elements and their needs, the message will not pass through. Obviously, you have to stick to principles, that's what will guide your advice and your recommendation or you know, anything you might do if it's a denunciation as well. But if there are certain things that you need to understand from their perspective, because if you don't do that, then you will not communicate. And obviously, communicating with me with my background is much easier, probably because I know, you know, I speak the same language after all. But, you know, many prison directors out there come from a purely security background or other type of background. And if they, they have the impression that they're speaking to broken records, who are just coming there, you know, repeating things, without really processing this information, it will be rejected as some foreign body. But you see, you come there with an understanding of their needs and their challenges. Also, your recommendations are much more targeted, I guess. And that's what I tried also to do as an ICRC delegate, I think I started my career with this very basic and standard approach whereby you have a checklist, then you go through the checklist, and then you're good delegate if you tick all the boxes, and then realizing that I was missing a lot of understanding of how prison systems worked. And then I looked for expertise, and I was lucky enough to find somebody who could help me on that. And I learned a lot from him. And he was definitely responsible for the success of the programs that we that we implemented. So I think really understanding no matter where you're working, I mean, who who's on the other side, and what are their needs, and also the resources they can have access to makes a huge difference, you know, somebody who doesn't have the resources, you will never be able he or she will never be able to work in a proper way. So you have to find a way to look what is realistic, and it's possible to achieve, which is not always easy, you know, it might some way contradict some of the principles or you might have to put some principles before other and create priorities, which not everybody has probably different types of priorities. So it's difficult to find a consensus on that.

Véronique Lerch  28:52

So do you feel your understanding of human rights has changed a lot since you since you graduated?

Francesco Bruscoli  28:59

For sure. Funnily enough, you know, when I when we were discussing human rights, and we were making priorities, you were all into, you know, freedom of speech, and freedom of association, etc. And then working in the field, you realize where that, you know, sometimes other priorities emerge and right to, to property, private property becomes very important, you know, in armed conflict, you know, people want to have their house back and their belongings, because that's, you know, that's the way they live, you know, and so, obviously, in other contexts, freedom of speech freedom organizations are super important when it comes to defending democracy, but when you work in, in developing countries affected by conflict, All of a sudden, you know, the priorities, most of the time of the people switch to very basic things, you know, like water and food and shelter and private property. And when it comes to prisons, obviously, we work now in a in a very developed system. So, internet and the like, become very, very important, which I would never saw before that it was a human rights, you know, the human rights of access to internet. But obviously, our life goes through to the internet now. And if you cut people from that you cut them from society, or at least part of society. And so that's, that's why I installed the computer connected to the internet and trying to find ways to have them access to their mobile phones. Because something that, you know, simply things that didn't exist 20 or 30 years ago now are part of the standards.

Véronique Lerch  30:58

basic needs and user needs. So do you do you wish there was something that you learned at the time when you studied human rights that you wish somebody told you at the beginning of your career?

Francesco Bruscoli  31:10

Yes and no, because I think it's important to find it also your own way. And each person has its own pattern and level of interest. I'm saying this because I was exposed to certain contexts and worked in with certain organizations probably, you know, if I had worked, continued working, even professionally, with Amnesty International, perhaps I would say different things now, you know, like you, eventually are exposed to different realities and you develop different levels of you're sensitive to different things in different ways. But obviously, like, being having contacts with people with, with hands on experience, with field experience is very important. So for any students, that that's definitely a suggestion that they would make, you know, to speak to, to anybody you can get your hands on, and some something interesting will come out, that's for sure.

Véronique Lerch  32:12

And would you have any advice in that regard? You know, would you have any specific advice for graduates or like anybody who would be interested in in working? Like, you know, I was gonna say, again, on the other side, but that's a bit unfair, like what to say, you know, working on the other side of the human rights monitoring, like the way you're doing, it could be like, prison director or director of other institutions. You know, there's so many other possibilities. I mean, what is it that you need to take into consideration if you want to take that route.

Francesco Bruscoli  32:45

I think it's important to, to follow your own interests. So never in my, in my youth, I would have thought I wouldn't end up as a prison director nor as a as a FIFA official either. So in a way, it was a mixture of chance and taking risks and also follow my own interests. And particularly prisons is, is never on anybody's list. I mean, no child ever dreams of being a prison director or a prison guard, hopefully also. But, but people who end up working in the prison domain, most of the time, just love it. And it's not perversion, it's a super interesting domain that has a lot to do with social support and giving a second chance to people and supporting people who are at the bottom of their lives. So it's, it's not really a security job. It's a job where security does play a role and you have to take into account but technology you know, is there so in a way it's super difficult to organize evasion from a European prison anyway, so it's not something that I lose my sleep at night for you.

Veronique Lerch  34:18

Well, obviously we talking about prison in in the context of one of the wealthiest country in the world. So I think yeah, we have to just be mindful of that, that yeah, it is different than talking about a prison in another country.

Francesco Bruscoli  34:34

probably, you know, I'm Italian so I sometimes they think how, how it is to be a prison director in Italy. But also in Switzerland, Switzerland is a federal state. So each Canton has its own system. So these have varying degrees of professionalism, even between cantons and resources devoted and even within the same canton have different prisons and so on. Um, obviously, you know, the more detainees you have, the more complicated etc. So it's not always easy even in Switzerland to manage a prison. But I think it's also, it's a job that requires a lot of very practical approach altogether. It's really the domain of what can be done. And then obviously, we have laws that you have to abide to, and a lot of rules. But it's really a matter of what can I do with the resources I have? ended there is a, there is definitely positive chances to do things, you know, to explore new new ways to work and come up with alternatives to practice that. There's my dog.

Veronique Lerch  35:57

Just for listeners, I mean, your dog wants to participate in discussion. So we can maybe just introduce your dog, what's is his name.

Francesco Bruscoli  36:08

Dante is His name is a Jack Russels with two black years and a black eye, the rest is white.

Véronique Lerch  36:16

So is there anything in particular that brings you joy in this, in this work

Francesco Bruscoli  36:21

my garden, we have a garden where we produce a lot of tomatoes, and zucchini and all sorts of fruits and vegetables. But it's not just the garden per se, but it's something that I do myself, because typically, you know, all the guards, they have their their tasks on a daily basis. And they can be very, very intense, they work 11 or 12 hours per day. So they have really long shifts. And they have a lot of things to do. And I'm the only one who sometimes has a little bit extra time to do the garden. So and I do it with detainees themselves. So they just come with me. And it's a moment where I can speak to them. And it's not me, the director and they are the detainees, obviously, you know, the rules don't change. But when we do the garden, we just do the garden. And it's very funny how, you know, they start making fun of me sometimes and just making jokes. It's part of the I really like it to do the garden. And typically, I also like everything where I can engage with detainees on matters that you know, don't relate to their sentence or to their, you know, their situation and stuff. So when they can play cards or play chess with them, that is very nice. And also, also with the with the guards. I mean, I think the secret is also tried to engage with everybody in the prison in a way as if it was a community. But obviously, the roles are clear. And the rules are there. But within the boundaries of the rules and the rules. There is a lot of possibility to engage with people. So that's something that I really enjoy.

Véronique Lerch  38:16

And is there anything that you say you wish for? I mean, do you have any, like hopeful vision for prisons? Is that something that you really would like to see change? In the future as you continue to work in this in this field?

Francesco Bruscoli  38:32

Probably abolish prisons? That would be you know, what, you know,

Véronique Lerch  38:37

I was going to ask you, but yeah,

Francesco Bruscoli  38:40

I mean, for prisons, a bad answer to a problem that nobody really knows how to deal with. The only thing it's the only answer we have at the moment, are some more advanced systems, they use prison as a last resort. But even those systems, they use it far too much. So probably even in Switzerland, we could reduce people who are incarcerated by a good margin. One of the limitations is you know, for, for instance, house arrest and alternatives is that, like foreign people, they there are too mobile, they don't sometimes have a play a place of residence, so it's really difficult to manage them. So somehow the Swiss system is really based on Swiss people. But now a big percentage of people ending up in prison is foreigners. So the system is not does not really cater for their needs in a way. But generally speaking, you know, prison is a concept that was developed in the 19th century on the basis of repent, pray and repent somehow that's a little bit the logic behind it. and everybody knows it doesn't work. And still, and still we are dealing with it. So. So I mean, the main challenge is to find illuminated politicians who have the courage to go beyond prisons and, and obviously, certain categories will inevitably end up in prison, I mean, you can just cancel prison as such, but I think the big challenge is just to use it to the strict minimum, and to be just a last resort just for people who can really be dealt with in different ways. But obviously, there is a lot of work on the cultural side and, you know, from if you look at it from a victim's perspective, you also want people to, to serve their sentence, you know, and so it's a really, really complex domain. But yes, I mean, the prison for me is more part of the problem than then the solution

Veronique Lerch  41:07

maybe as we getting close to the end of this interview, I was I was wondering if there's anything that is helping you when I can imagine that work is not always easy. So what is happening you when things are getting tough at work? And is it mainly climbing? Because you seem to be nature related stuff in a sport and or is there anything else is there like, you know, some type of music or literature, or is there anything else that helps you to get grounded

Francesco Bruscoli  41:41

any other job, there is stress, there is less stress than I actually thought before accepting the job, I thought it would be a highly stressful position, requiring a lot of attention and somehow risk prevention. You just have to live with it somehow. And if you live with it, and you don't get stressed as you should probably be my main source of support is my staff. Because they are really, really good, they have a lot of experience and they they react the right way. So I really trust them 100% They have to call me just when the situation goes beyond their capacities, but most of the time they already have them they know what to do and I think that that that makes a big difference you know, working in an environment where you know that the team is autonomous they can they have the right approach. And and you're you're just there to make sure that they can work at the best of their capacities and make their working conditions as as best as possible. And then for the rest Yes, mountain plays a big role in in just getting rid of the some of the stress that is produced anyway.

Véronique Lerch  43:03

Okay, thank you Francesco. Is there any final concluding words that you want to leave us with some words of wisdom from from them that you wanted to participate? Maybe Dante has something too good.

Francesco Bruscoli  43:19

He wants to get out I think he's word of wisdom is where is my Frisbee? I want to

Veronique Lerch  43:26

Well, then, you know, Lee, you know, you keep enjoying the work you're doing and you inspire other people to maybe try the other side...

Francesco Bruscoli  43:35

... of the power